Demons and Martial Arts

[JDK]

The truth is no one knows whether things like this have any objective existence or not. No one can possibly know that without getting the kind of "birds eye view" on reality that we just can't have. Do you have the ability to step outside of the limitations of your own perception, biases etc and say exactly what is or isn't within the universe in some way, shape or form? Of course not, no one does.

There's more than one way to look at the world.

I guess I would differ with you on this point...if one has "been there and done that" that gives one experience in a certain area, taking it beyond just heresay...and making it reality.

It pains me to address this issue because I struggled with it for so long.
I should also add that I am looking at this topic from a christian perspective.
If a person is not a christian...then they will probabley not have any problems philisophically with the practice of the Eastern Arts.

The fact is you cannot divorce true Martial Arts from heathen practices of religion.

You can practice a watered down version, make it into a sport....and leave out the customs and traditions.....but at the heart you still have a view of the Universe that is not rooted in belief in The God of The Bible.

That was my point...which I should have made clear in my first response.


JDK

[taai gihk yahn]

The truth is no one knows whether things like this have any objective existence or not. No one can possibly know that without getting the kind of "birds eye view" on reality that we just can't have. Do you have the ability to step outside of the limitations of your own perception, biases etc and say exactly what is or isn't within the universe in some way, shape or form? Of course not, no one does.

There's more than one way to look at the world.

ummm, no;

if they are real, then where did the original "sighting" of angels / demons / flying spagetti monsters occur? if someone had a direct experience with one of them, then our perceptual apparatus is capable of experiencing them;

OTOH, if they cannot be demonstrated to exist within our ability to perceive them, then there is no way anyone could ever have done so, so therefore, it must all be conjecture or some sort of perceivable phenommenon that was not understood rationally and therefore was ascribed to "supernatural" stuff

you realize, that we get stuck in this same argument all the time? someone has an idea that angels / demons / god / whatever exists, but can offer no proof; when someone calls them on it they say, "well, you can't DISPROVE it, so you have to accept the possibility that it is real"

of course, the OBVIOUS answer is that the only way to "see" them is to undertake special training, and I can send you a packet of how to do that for $666.00 plus a monthly member ship fee of indeterminate amount (just send me your cc#, I'll handle the rest)

[taai gihk yahn]

If a person is not a christian...then they will probabley not have any problems philisophically with the practice of the Eastern Arts.

The fact is you cannot divorce true Martial Arts from heathen practices of religion.

You can practice a watered down version, make it into a sport....and leave out the customs and traditions.....but at the heart you still have a view of the Universe that is not rooted in belief in The God of The Bible.

it never ceases to amaze me how so many people continue to accept something so inherently relative as being absolute

[JDK]

A little more tolerant position....

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Martial2.html

[ShaolinDan]

There are a lot of things that individuals can experience, that no one else can perceive. I have always thought of visitations by angels, gods, demons, ghosts, etc., to be something that happens internally, not something others can observe.
When Telemachus is possessed by Athena, no one sees Athena, except in the nature of Telemachus' oratory/poise.

[David Jamieson]

The truth is no one knows whether things like this have any objective existence or not. No one can possibly know that without getting the kind of "birds eye view" on reality that we just can't have. Do you have the ability to step outside of the limitations of your own perception, biases etc and say exactly what is or isn't within the universe in some way, shape or form? Of course not, no one does.

There's more than one way to look at the world.

I agree, however, in keeping an open mind, it is wise to not leave it so wide open that one's brain falls out.

When we speak of things like demons and angels, because they cannot be proven or dis-proven, they are not a necessary construct yet get applied very often.

This is done from ignorance and not seeing the reality that is right there.


Example: 6 miners get buried, only 3 are saved and 3 die. To the three that get saved, you will hear about how it is a miracle and angels watched over them, but what of the three who died?

That is where the idea of angels and demons fails. They are in fact mechanisms which perpetuate ignorance.

As for the write up on eastern religions, there is so much error in that, I have no idea why it was even placed on the board. The misspellings and outright misinformed opinion in that write up made the other look like an ignoramus for one thing, close minded for another and if I were not to be kind, I would openly call the author an outright friggin moron.

But that wouldn't be very Christian. I wish people who think they are christian, but aren't would stop harping on about things, shut up and go read and live by the teachings they are supplied with. So often, there is failure in the evangelical approach.

[ShaolinDan]

As far as Christian mystical experience goes, isn't visitation by the holy ghost along the same kind of lines as other visitations? (see athena/telemachus above.)

[David Jamieson]

Trans-personal religious experience is NEVER a shared experience.

It is manifest only in the mind of the experienced.

What happens when they try to convince everyone else that they had a real experience is where it gets sticky.

some will accept it having perhaps had a trans-personal experience themselves and others will reject it.

the first often seek to validate their own experience, the ones who lie about it are only fitting in or trying to identify with a group and the ones who reject the trans personal experience of another are in fact correct because the reality of the matter is that it only has any meaning whatsoever for the person who had the experience.

Churches and all the trimmings are worldly mechanisms that serve worldly purposes. You will not be saved by going to church and obeying the priest. You will not be saved by praying the most and you will not be saved by showing the world how much you love god. None of that outward worldly stuff has any meaning or value whatsoever except in context to worldly human needs for egotistical satisfaction.

Community can be had, law can be given, but ultimately it is in the heart and the mind of the individual where everything really is regarding god or gods.

[Lucas]

I work out with demons all the time.

[GeneChing]

If you buy into the theory of qi, the fine print of that purchase typically includes mysticism, and it's only a hop(ping ghost), skip and a jump to demonic possession. In the ancient world, when the paradigm was pre-psychology, it surely had it's functionality with mental illness. Today, it still retains some of this within traditional cultures. Science would dub that superstitious, but that doesn't render placebo effect useless - quite the opposite in fact. Of course, within the martial world, it's trickier because of cult issues.

It's actually been an area of research that I've been pondering a lot recently. I deal with a lot of qi vampires.

[Lucas]

If you rabbit punch a Qi Vampire in the crotch they throw up all your Qi and you can take it back.

[Lucas]

Psychic Vampire Test

lol

[David Jamieson]

I don't give qi theory buy in.

I take qi literally. as in:

1. Breath
2. transformative process to energy

I don't see it as something obscure. It is the air we breath that sustains us, it is also the energy that propels us.

It also is a working part of the transformative process such as conversion of food to energy and that resulting energy.

When it gets mystified beyond those, it gets turned into a complicated mess and I don't subscribe to all that stuff around it such as 5 phases, destruction/upholding etc etc. TO complex.

breath in/breath out
consume/transform

and when it's gone, you die.

[Lucas]

and when it's gone, you die.

speak for yourself

im going to transform into a poltergeist

[GeneChing]

We should install that as part of our forum membership application!

Rabbit punches may work this year against qi vampires. I've heard that the falcon punch is a better technique to subdue them, but I haven't dared to go there. I think it's another qi vampire trap.