where the story is from

[yellowpikachu]

Just before I left for a long trip.


I recieve tons of emails asking me where the Fong Chit-Niang is Ming Last emperor's daughter story is from? Am I making it up?
Am I really a self-proclaim.....



Here I would like to give you where the story of Fong Chit-Niang is from in Chinese. So you can see I didnt make it up. it is from those White crane weng Chun's expert. please see the attached snap short. This story is not new for the White Crane Weng Chun people. This is one of the story about Fong.

As for am I self -proclaim.... I am just reportiing what I found. So there is nothing personal. it is about research. On the other hand, who am I doesnt matter because who am I is who am I. who is my sifu in WCK or Chan...do I have it or not.... disregard of what, I cant change them. am I perfect? no, I always need advise from friends to improve myself. so, I dont expect other to be perfect human too.


As for research, what I can see is, as I mention before, research is a by luck thing. sometimes one get lucky. sometimes, one miscode... ask anyone in high tech research or investment, they will tell you hey, try your best and present the facts. The rest doesnt matter because who is God who knows everything? who is God who cant be wrong? it is just a research. and research can always do better next time. As Thomas Edision said, " I found 100 or ways how things doesnt work." I think some people take things too serious. We all need to learn from Thomas Edision. IMHHO. There is no fail research there is only denial to accept the fact research. so, no one is blaming others on anything.


Happy and have a great coming Chinese New year!
have a open heart. Zen is about Open heart.


Just some thoughts. and so long until see you again!


Ps. may be some one can help to inteprete the attach snap short from Chinese to English? Thanks and appreciate!

[yellowpikachu]

Since I have to spend sometimes waiting. and see there is not translate yet. Let me roughly translate what was written in the attached Snap short.



----------------------------------------------------- (all chinese pronounciation in Mandarin.)



Miss Seh Fu :

Ming dynastiy emperor Choong Chern has a daugther.

[note: Choong Chern is the last emperor of Ming Dynasty who hang himself when the rebel's Lee Chee-Chen take over BeiJing]


She took Chen Yong-Hua as her teacher. All these people was living in 1600's.

[Note: Chen was one of the founder of the Tien Tee Hui, and his nick name the White Crane Daoist].



(It was said that Rebel Fang Sek-Fui, is Fang Chaang-Kuang from "Zhe Jiang chuh" state's "lee Sui" area. Fang has great indepth mastering in Internal martail art. Fang was asked by Chen Chiin-Nan to guide and teach the daughter of Emperor Choong Chern. The princess changes her name to Chi-Niang. Hiding in Fujian's Foo Zhou state's Sha Lien [sand lotus] Buddhist temple )

[note: another name of Chen Yong-Hua is Chen Chiin-Nan]
[Note: she Also used Fang's last name as her last name.]



Studying the internal martial art. when she attained an advance skill. She decided to shave her hair and become a Buddhist nun. She then transmitting the core of the Internal art to the members of the association/gang. integrate with what they have learn to increase the fighting capability.

Chi-Niang is a female. Locally called her art as "young lady martial art". Chi-Niang's original family name is Chu. In official language of that time, Chu and Ser pronounce similarly. respectly she was called " Young Lady Seh Fu".

After she passed away. her name was written as "lady seh Fu". Respectly memorized her as the Great Grand master of the art she taught

[note:Chu is the last name of the Ming Emperor]




---------------------------------------------------------------------

Note:

Fang Chi-Niang, Chen Chiin-Nan or Chen Yong-wah,Fang Chi-Niang's father Fang is also a real person. White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian was known to have relationship with the rebels and taiwan gorvement at that time which is the anti-Qing. After Qing took over Taiwan. A student of Chi_niang (or Fang Yong-Chun ) Bai Chieh, went back to Fujian and teaching the Inch Jing Join Power. This was recorded in writing.



Who is Ng Mui implied? Chen Yong-Wah? Fang Chi-Niang? or other from this white crane lineage?

one is known as the White Crane Daoist. One is a Buddhist Nun, who who taught her internal Kung fu the White Crane art to the association/gang...




As for the influence of Fang Chi-niang's internal White Crane art influence on the So called "Southern Shao Lin" in 1700's. also is from the White Crane Weng Chun expert's note. White Crane Weng Chuners has a good bookeeping on thier records. Thus, today we can still read at least 6 volumes of classic .....


I leave all of these information to you if you decide to find out for yourself.

[Jim Roselando]

HS,


Thanks for the translation/sharing!


Regards,

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik---

Appreciate the document and translation that you shared.
I dont as you know- read Chinese and the document does not speak to my practice yet.
But puzzle solving in dealing with historical events is achallenge.

Taiji after initial stumbling and complete myth making has a good solid core now of both classical and the sorting out of the historical development from Chen Wanting rather than Chan fan Seng to the present time.(Sp?). Southern styles imo deserve equal care.

The scroll that you translated- when was it written?
There is a reference to the "lee sui area".

In some oral versions an early name for the later labelled "ng Mui" was "Lee siu Leung". Allowing for Mandarin- Cantonese pronounciation differences(lee siu/lee sui?)- any connection between the two names and any comments on other oral stories?

Some at times cynically point out that Ng Mui is credited with founding several different styles plum blossom fist etc. IMO that in theory is possible... great artists go through stages in their development morphing from one stage of development to another...Picasso in painting is a good example- being both prolific and going through stages of development.

Also- back in the 17th century while a buddhist temple could have
kung fu for health... temples were occasionally refuges
for all sorts of people who were not monks or even buddhist...isnt that correct? Some stories have ng mui
beinga daoist and just assuming the buddhist disguise for survival. Comment? Many stories also refer to her blending crane and snake elements.

Lots of murky translations... " seeing a fight between a crane and a snake" can be metaphorically related to
blending things fron crane and snake "styles" or themes.

Metaphors are usefull vehicles for some transmissions of insight.. and different from linear thinking.

Sometimes then and now people can use a temple umbrella for purposes of seeking legitimacy or asa disguise for other purposes?

[reneritchie]

Thanks Hendrik. Interesting stuff. I'm sure anyone, regardless of their own personal opinions, wouldn't be anything but thrilled that more people are sharing more and more information. It only benefits us all.

[CFT]

Images are a bit small.

Characters 5 & 6 on the second line of the second pic. says: "chuan shuo" or "chuen suet" - "according to legend" ...

Do you have corroborating contemporary sources?

[CFT]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
The scroll that you translated- when was it written?
There is a reference to the "lee sui area".

In some oral versions an early name for the later labelled "ng Mui" was "Lee siu Leung". Allowing for Mandarin- Cantonese pronounciation differences(lee siu/lee sui?)- any connection between the two names and any comments on other oral stories?

Joy, I don't know my Chinese history, but the "Lee Sui" area that Hendrik transliterated can be directly translated as Beautiful (Lai) Water (Sui).

The historical (or mythical) figure of Lui Sei Leung can just mean the Fourth (Sei) Lady (Leung) of the Lui family. The characters are totally different.

[yellowpikachu]

Hello Joy got some times here.

Also- back in the 17th century while a buddhist temple could have
kung fu for health... temples were occasionally refuges
for all sorts of people who were not monks or even buddhist...isnt that correct?------J

Yup, Fang take refuge to live in the Sand Lotus temple. Shave her head later, but later went back to lay life. So, that is clear.


Some also claim that:
---------------------------------------------------------

Also according to White Crane oral legends put Fong Chut Leung lived in from 1662 to 1722.

Wing Chun is a system that existed in the Southern Shaolin temple. The Southern Shaolin Temple was destroyed before Ms. Fong was born.

How can Wing Chun come from Fong Chut Leung if the temple was destroyed before she was born?

-------------------------------------------------------

Let see if the above claim is true or not.


Let me qoute from the written record of the White Crane WEng Chun decendents.

Fang was born around at the end of Ming Dynasty at the Ming Emperor Choong Chern's time.

white Crane Weng Chun was founded around 1650's to 1662.

at 1662 to 1722, Fang Chi-Niang went with her husband back to her husband home town --Yong Chun, Fujian. In a location outside the West Gate. There they taught the White Crane Style.
This is the era where Fang Chi-Niang transmit her art to Yong Chun area. And the Name Fang Yong Chun comes from here.


Now looking at the writting about the burning of Yiu Lien San shao lin temple (presume it exist)
That is happen at the era of Qing's Kangxi emperor arround 1672.


Then we know the above view on "The Southern Shaolin Temple was destroyed before Ms. Fong was born. " is not correct by evidence because White Crane was founded decades before the legendary Temple was born.




Further more, this is another interesting story about Chen Yong-hua or Chen Chiin-Nan (who was told as Fang's chi-niang's teacher on the snap short attached.) we want to look at.


Chen Chiin-Nan /Chen Yong-Hua, the genral under the Ming General zhen Chen-Kung who later reside in Taiwan. Chen is great at Matial art, once he was embush by hundreds of solders and escape.

after he take refuge in Daoism, his nick name is the white crane daoist. he live in seclusion in the white crane cave . he was in studing/researching Daoism there.

later, he met his old friends and the old friends visited him at the White Crane Cave to discuss about the situation of rebeling.
Due to the White Crane Cave didnt have enough room for all.

Chen lead them to a place - smaller temple- which is not far away from the White Crane Cave . The place, as the folk called it as Hung Fa Ting.


Chen Chiin Nang was the director of Hung Fa Ting at the 25th of the Seventh month, 1674 while making oath for the brother hood..



From Here we know Chen is a general under Ming General Zhen Chen-Kung of Taiwan. Chen is a daoist and practiced Daoism not Buddhism. Chen's meeting place is Hung Fa Ting and he is the leader there.



Above are the evidents in Events in the history.
Technically, we can cut it with then investigatioin of Inch Jing Join Power, the White Crane Weng Chun momentum/energy signatures. and then see if the Events in the history converge with the Technical history.


IMHHHO, this is about research. Nothing personal. and nothing about smearing others. it is about showing the facts and evidents and present them as it is. keeping it to be as original as possible. There is no oldest to be claim. There is no the most original to be claim. There is no disrespect of others lineage. (if other look at the evidents as an opposition of thier history which doesnt mean to be from a researcher's positio, then not much we can do about it because we cannot change history to make one person happen. )


I oftern encourage people to study Chinese and check for themself because there are ton's of things laying around which one can check out. waiting for translater or even chinese writer to translate the classical chinese to modern chinese is a pain. it always comes with big distortion. Dont trust me, I might opps. I can make mistakes.... check for yourself that is better because
we all are imperfect human. So, dont listern to anyone. Check it out for yourself.


time to go. Bye for now.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by CFT
Images are a bit small.

Characters 5 & 6 on the second line of the second pic. says: "chuan shuo" or "chuen suet" - "according to legend" ...

Do you have corroborating contemporary sources?

CFT,

yes, Chuan shuo which I translated to As it said here can be According to legend


As I put it it is a Story.

This is one of the Stories the White Crane Weng Chun people collected in thier White Crane Weng Chun research. based on Chin San Tai , chiin si Dang, chuan si loo. or the gold mountain platform deligent study hall transmitting study record.

I only present what they print.




Chin San tai is a anti-qing organization. Chiin si Dang is the sect of teaching martial arts of the organization. 1661 General Zhen Chen-Kung lead his army into Taiwan. his official, Chen Young-Hua who later changes his name to Chen Chiin-Nan went to Chiin Meng (goldern door) , xia men, Fujian. organizing the uprising/returning Chen founded the Tien Tee Hui and settle the naming to Chin San Tai. Gold Mount Platform. with the meaning, Chiin Meng and Taiwan is an unmoveable land. Chiin stand for Chiin Meng and Tai stand for Taiwan.


In the Chin San Tai , chiin si Dang gold mountain platform deligent study hall's Grandmaster (ancestors) Hall, in there are the alta (?)for pray to Tai Tzu Grandmaster, White CRane Spiritual grandmaster, Lady Ser Fu ( Fang Chi-Niang).

So, the Lady Ser Fu is a serious one who the Anti-Qing organization praying to in thier martial art studying hall's grandmaster (ancestors) hall.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I was reading on the net recently some stuff about South Mantis and the so-called Royal Family boxing (or version) being compared with the White Crane art/stories. Since the info. was a direct comparison to the White Crane art I thought I would discuss it on this site with in over a White Crane topic!




Over the years (like any arts stories) the Chu Gar Tong Long story has evolved into what people call Royal Family boxing. The story sounds very nice but its more-likely nothing more than a fancy fluff.

According to Tong Long pai in China the Chu art has nothing to do with any Royal family. A gentleman named Chu Long Bot studied the boxing art and later taught a person named Chu An Nam. The art was named Chu Gar (chu family) boxing after its practitioners. Chu An Nam taught Lau Sui (a very popular person in Chu circles as he taught openly in Hong Kong) who later taught Chu Kwei (and others) who taught Chu Kong Wah. A well known practitioner of Chu Gar Gao.

The Chu art was later called Chow by one of Lau Sui's students (Yip Sui).

Some of the cross info. that is seen in the art comes from the more-likely possiblity that Fukien Crane had an effect on this system. The art is only about 4 genrations old and can only be traced to the mid to early 1800's. The art that Chu Long Bot learned was born in the Lungfushan area which is on the northern boarder of Fukein. Some "honest" mantis practitioners openly state that it is more likely White Crane had an effect on their art as well as many others.


Have to run but just thought I would drop this info.!


Regards,

[yellowpikachu]

here is a qoute from the white crane weng chun expert's introduction writting while releasing one of the classic White Crane Weng Chun writting.






These Concepts and theory of White Crane Weng Chun is scarcity even in the Southern Shao Lin of that time. These concepts and theories had make a very deep and vast impact in the Southern shao lin martial art society.

Even today, there are still some shao lin Nam Kuen still using the Kuen Po (martial art record), Kuen Keng (martial art theories) which originally belong to White crane Weng Chun.




Again, as a messanger I post what I found the best I can do. Nothing personal. we are living in the 21th century now. I think we need to open our heart and embrace and share the differences and more facts which will come out. no one is perfect and no one get all right, that is the fairness of the heaven. so keep learning and sharing.


and the term such as Chiu Yong, po pai of Wing Chun Kuen ..... are indeed can found in the White Crane Weng Chun Classic....


Get to go now. it is very very late

[taltos]

I'm confused...

you said:

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Above are the evidents in Events in the history.... it is about showing the facts and evidents and present them as it is

But then you acknowledge:

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
yes, Chuan shuo which I translated to As it said here can be According to legend... As I put it it is a Story

So it is NOT fact. It is an ORAL LEGEND. With that said, then anyone's ORAL LEGEND is acceptable as an ORAL LEGEND. You may choose to believe your legend, just as I choose to believe mine. No worries.

But THEN you said:

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
There is no oldest to be claim. There is no the most original to be claim. There is no disrespect of others lineage

While just a few days ago on another thread you stated (I am paraphrasing because I can't find the reference) that until anyone can "prove" (how? by using legends YOU believe?) that their WC was developed earlier than White Crane that they somehow "owe" White Crane for a "patent violation."

You have implied that the VTM has erred in making "oldest" and "most original" claims, even though they have stated that such statements are the present conclusions of their research, yet when you make the EXACT SAME claims, it is somehow not the same thing.

Perhaps it would be best to practice what you preach. THEN, when someone errs, you can point that out without looking hypocritical.

-Levi

[yellowpikachu]

Levi,



Great point!


Here I list the facts so you dont confuse and/or mixing up what is not in the post or different section of the post.



1, Fang was born around at the end of Ming Dynasty at the Ming Emperor Choong Chern's time.

2, white Crane Weng Chun was founded around 1650's to 1662.

3, at 1662 to 1722, Fang Chi-Niang went with her husband back to her husband home town --Yong Chun, Fujian. In a location outside the West Gate. There they taught the White Crane Style.
This is the era where Fang Chi-Niang transmit her art to Yong Chun area. And the Name Fang Yong Chun comes from here.


4, Chen Yong-Hau/Chen Chiin Nan is real person and what he has done is traceable.


5, Evidents is the anti-qing is praying at Lady Ser Fu in their training hall's ancestors hall.

(and BTW. why dont the anti-Qing directly from Zhen Chen-Kung line praying to others instead of the White Crane weng Chun master ?)


6, with solid evident, Fang was born and teaching the White Crane Weng Chun while the legendary Shao Lin was burn. (if one bring up the legendary shao lin burning legend)


7....




Thank you for your critics.
As for your speculation on me, I wont answer to your logic and speculation on implication...etc. since you can speculate as much as you like. it is a free world.





The position I took in the subject of research on WCK history is as I mention on the above post openly.

In case you didnt read. and if you dont like my position. Please do not join this discusion. Because this is not a discussion about me.



IMHHHO, this is about research. Nothing personal. and nothing about smearing others. it is about showing the facts and evidents and present them as it is. keeping it to be as original as possible. There is no oldest to be claim. There is no the most original to be claim. There is no disrespect of others lineage. (if other look at the evidents as an opposition of thier history which doesnt mean to be from a researcher's positio, then not much we can do about it because we cannot change history to make one person happen. )


I oftern encourage people to study Chinese and check for themself because there are ton's of things laying around which one can check out. waiting for translater or even chinese writer to translate the classical chinese to modern chinese is a pain. it always comes with big distortion. Dont trust me, I might opps. I can make mistakes.... check for yourself that is better because
we all are imperfect human. So, dont listern to anyone. Check it out for yourself.



the above is my answer to you.


since I am out of town soon I will be able to answer post only when I got hold of a terminal.

So Long. and hope that this discussion is not being deleted by Sandman because of any wild discussion. Keep things proffesional is the key to find out about fact. IMHHO.

[taltos]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
1, Fang was born around at the end of Ming Dynasty at the Ming Emperor Choong Chern's time.

2, white Crane Weng Chun was founded around 1650's to 1662.

3, at 1662 to 1722, Fang Chi-Niang went with her husband back to her husband home town --Yong Chun, Fujian. In a location outside the West Gate. There they taught the White Crane Style.
This is the era where Fang Chi-Niang transmit her art to Yong Chun area. And the Name Fang Yong Chun comes from here.

4, Chen Yong-Hau/Chen Chiin Nan is real person and what he has done is traceable.

5, Evidents is the anti-qing is praying at Lady Ser Fu in their training hall's ancestors hall.

6, with solid evident, Fang was born and teaching the White Crane Weng Chun while the legendary Shao Lin was burn. (if one bring up the legendary shao lin burning legend)

7....

Thank you for your critics.
As for your speculation on me, I wont answer to your logic and speculation on implication...etc. since you can speculate as much as you like. it is a free world.

So what VERIFIABLE, CROSS REFERENCED sources confirm 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6? I'd like to actually research it for myself and I'd appreciate a starting point that is NON-MARTIAL and verifiable. Thanks!

As for speculation... I didn't speculate anywhere. I made some observations.

IMHO, of course.

-Levi

[yellowpikachu]

QUOTE]Originally posted by taltos
So what VERIFIABLE, CROSS REFERENCED sources confirm 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6? I'd like to actually research it for myself and I'd appreciate a starting point that is NON-MARTIAL and verifiable. Thanks!


-Levi [/QUOTE]

sure,

As I told everyone, dont believe me. check it out for yourself. find out all about the White Crane Weng Chun, the Shao Lin, the Chan teaching. So one can see what happen first hand.


You can check into various writting and official records from China and compare them. Go to China and Taiwan. ( but you need to know classical Chinese language.)


looking into Such as:

The official record
Yong Chun county record,
or Yong Chun Sien Tze,


Chin San Tai , chiin si Dang, chuan si loo. or the gold mountain platform deligent study hall transmitting study record.


History of Qing Dynasty on Chen Chiin Nan.



And then check out also


Chan Patiriach Hsu Yun had a lecture note in the Ven. Hsu Yun lecture collection on Shao lin and martial monks in the past .

the book Shao Lin Chuan Su Mi Chieh on the Shao Lin's deciple view towards the anti-Qing and what happen that time.


Brahmanet Sutra on how a Buddhist monk suppose to live daily life.


etc...



and ofcorse ,
there are plenty of White CRane Weng Chun classical writings and research have been done. which can be read.


lots of Classical Books and information can be checked out.

however, a friendly warning here. for lots of people, going this path is traveling into the path of no return meeting the facts. Once the heart opened and Tranform will no be able to live the same with before.....


Best wishes for your journey.


so long everyone, I am going to get into no web black out for a while.