Knifefighter et al: sceptics' discussion thread.

[Mr Punch]

David Ross
Earlier in this thread, I mentioned "Iron Head" and how he told us he'd beaten all the coaches in "sparring" except for Chan Tai san, that was because to him "sparring" was light almost point sparring and you didn't play with Chan Tai San unless you wanted to get hurt...

Sifu Chan was always ready with a story about how HE got beat up. He told us the story about Jyu Chyuhn beating him, Mok Ching Gui beating him, Cheung Lai Chung beating him, etc... funny thing was, he seldom talked about his victories... we would sometimes get a glimmer from him, but many times we'd get stories from others. This is one we got that is definitely not PC and has freaked quite a lot out...

A frienf of Sifu Chan's told us this story one afternoon while Sifu Chan was preoccupied with something. I guess it is not on Sifu's top 10 stories to get out, you'll see why later. It was later told to me almost identically by another teacher in SF who knew Sifu Chan...

Sifu Chan first joined the military at 17 in 1937. He fought in both World War II and the Chinese civil war. In the communist, post war era, he remained in the military and in the 1960's, already in his 40's, Sifu Chan Tai San was an all military sparring champion.

Sifu Chan did tell us about the sparring championships inside the military. Very little rules, very small gloves, like MMA gloves. We all knew he was a champion and considered a very good fighter inside the military.

The rest is the story Sifu Chan did not tell us, but we heard from his two friends...

In the 1970's, Sifu Chan was in his 50's. I guess compared to a guy in his 20's, Sifu Chan was considered an "old man", but to Sifu Chan, he was still the best fighter in the army and no one was going to say otherwise...

One day, Sifu Chan overheard two guys talking about a young army officer. They were talking about him, praising his skill, one suggested he might be better than Chan Tai San. Try to remember that the actual guy in question was not bragging, this was two guys sitting at a table eating rice talking a little too loud for their own good.

Having overheard the claim that this young officer was "better" than Chan Tai San, Sifu Chan approached these two guys and told them to set up a match between him and this young guy.

I also said earlier in this thread, Sifu Chan had skills I will NEVER have. He had hardened his hands, his claws dug into vital points, his chops were heavier than any blows I'd ever felt (or felt since). He knew things about fighting I will never know. It is that simple.

As I tell you what he did, don't ask me how he did it, I don't know. Dont' ask me "could I do it"? I couldn't. But I have no reason not to believe the story. It was told to me by two separate guys, guys who didn't know eachother, guys who both had brought it up without me asking, just in passing. And it fit right in with what "Iron Head" said about NO ONE going anywhere near Chan Tai San

The match was set up. I don't know if the younger guy had any idea what had been said or why Sifu Chan wanted to fight him. For all I know, he showed up expecting a friendly sparring match. For all I know, he may have actually like and admired Chan Tai San.

What was pretty apparent was, Sifu Chan was determined to keep his reputation...

It wasn't a long match, Sifu's friend said that the younger guy maybe landed a kick. The other teacher in SF made it sound very one side, like Sifu Chan went BOOM and it was over. Both agreed how it ended. Sifu Chan knew he'd done some sort of internal damage, and while the young guy was lying on the floor at sifu's feet, Sifu screamed at the two guys who had set up the match...

"don't ever say that anyone is better than Chan Tai San....."

The young guy died. A few years after I had heard the story again (ie in SF), I got up enough courage to ask Sifu Chan about it. Sifu Chan didn't get mad, he just matter-of-fact manner said he'd used a technique to rupture an internal organ, knowing it would likely kill the guy.

Did the guy really die? I asked?

"Yes, he died" Sifu Chan said....

[Mr Punch]

The idea of rupturing an internal organ does strike me as "esoteric" and I don't buy a lot of the "chi" gimmicks, or "dim mak" as in "death touch"

My father is a medical doctor, my mother was an ER nurse. There's science and perfectly logical explanations for stuff like this. The kidneys can rupture, so can the spleen. Bone fragments can tear through soft tissue. Certain muscular contractions can actually prevent the lungs from expanding, preventing you from beathing...

Sifu Chan was a doctor, capable of bone setting, accupressure and accupuncture, but he was also rather matter-of-fact regarding the fighting applications of such knowledge. When asked about "Dim Mak" he replied he indeed knew it, but his explanation would probably shock a lot....

Strictly speaking, "Dim Mak" only means to "point the pulse" or "touch the pulse"

Dim Yeut, another term used for this sort of thing, means "point the cavity" or "touch the cavity", "Yuet" being certain points on the body...

Sifu Chan's "Dim Mak" was nothing more (and nothing less) than very concentrated strikes to logical areas. the strike were also contoured, using formations of the hands that best fit the area and best transfered the force.

I've been on the receiving end of two of them. I was hit under the arm pit, where a pile of nerves sit, with the fingers. The resulting trama kept me from raising my arm for a day or so.

I was hit in the solar plexus, causing a muscular contraction that prevented me from inhaling, had sifu not messaged and straightened me out, it certainly felt like I was going to die, probably I would have collapsed first, then started breathing... but it would not have been fun...

[Mr Punch]

He hears TWO OTHER GUYS stating that they thought a third guy was better than him. He then has them set up a fight with this third guy who THEY think might be better than him. He then uses a "deadly tecchnique" to intentionally kill the guy, who was pretty much just minding his own business.

Cough...bull...cough...****...cough.

[Mr Punch]

Just out of curiosity, do you think this is bull**** because of the "deadly technique" aspect, or just because you don't think somone would be so much of a reputation-obsessed wack job as to cripple or kill someone who was said to be better than them?

[Mr Punch]

Both.

[Mr Punch]

Hate to disappoint you, but the world still revolves whether you believe it does or not...

[Mr Punch]

Dave et. al.,

my apologies in advance, I hope that this doesn't constitute thread contamination, but I'd like to breifly address the post by "knifefighter", specifically in context to Sifu Chan, and as a lead-in to another Sifu Chan story - so I crave your indulgence...

first, although he could at times be nice, funny, even grandfathely, I have also seen Sifu Chan totally wig out over things like suggestions that his lion dance wasn't the best, his qigong demos weren't authentic, his gung fu wasn't effective, etc.; bottom line, the man was one tough b1tch, and would spare no effort to make this known; (you know, considering how many people get into fights or even get shot here in the US for dumb reasons, like wearing the wrong colors, or looking at someone the wrong way, or hearing someone talk tash, how is it that you find this so hard to believe it could happen somewhere else?); look - the guy was, to some extent, a hood - he'd killed people; i know people who've killed other people aside from him - they're screwed in the head, and once having crossed that line, tend to see things a bit differently than those of us who haven't...

second, in regards to the "death touch" - my BS meter is set pretty high, but a lot of nasty stuff can happen when the autonomic nervous system gets stimulated violently: HR/BP falls/rises precipitously, respiration gets screwed up, and even peripheral circulation, digestion, elimination and various other systems can go to hell over a delayed period of time; based on my experience as a PT doing osteopathic manual therapy, including adjustment, organ manips etc., and also on the experiences of my wife, a surgeon / ER doc, osteopath and former sambo player from the USSR (yes, we've had some fun converstions), we've both seen negative effects w/the ANS that seem hard to believe, but do occur - even during treatment, messed up people can have rapid changes in state when the organism is trying to re-balance itself; so it's reasonable that strikes to an autonomic ganglia can create all sorts of havoc; sooo, in regards to this and Sifu Chan: 1) I have been grabbed by a lot of people; unequivocably, Sifu's fingers were the hardest, most piercing set of claw-like apendages that i've ever felt - it was like hot iron nails - it almost felt like electric shocks at times; I can't imagine what it would feel like for him to grab you hard or hit you w/them: part of his training was to push nails into the wall (he showed us this once - sick); so, popping someone in the axillary or clavicular neurovascular bundles (two of his favorite areas to target) w/fingers like that - yeowch!! 2) the way he showed applications, in retrospect, since I didn't have the medical knwledge at the time, it was a logical and systematic progression of attacks to areas that were rife with the above mentioned neural structures - even though he wasn't showing dim yeut per se, the applications were almost all geared towards areas that would create both local and hopefully (?) systemic reactions...nasty

so, in summary, Sifu Chan had the temperment, the knowledge and the ability to totally do what he claimed; even though I never heard that story until now, i have not doubt that it could have occurred the way it was told - but one had to know him to be sure of that; so for those that didn't, I'd reserve judgement about him in that regard; ok - the matter is closed.

anyway, that segues into the story I wanted to tell: as Dave pointed out, Sifu was also a doctor, and for 2 years in Mineola I assisted him w/treatment of all students and other people who would come into the school for treatment (ah, those days of doing 500 tuina strokes in both directions to some 280 pound guys lumbar spine); so one day, the school's resident brawler-guy gets his knee all twisted up and it quickly takes on the reseamblance to a water balloon; so, we bring him to the back room ("the clinic"), and Sifu proceeds to quickly turn his knee into a pin cushion; now, i'd read about the phenomenon called "needle shock" by then, which is that some people just can't see themselves w/needles sticking out of their boy w/out passing out; so, when I see Mr. tough-guy start to turn an interesting shade of green looking at his knee, I was like "dude, DON'T look at the needle!"; too late - and down he goes, sliding off the couch onto the floor; Sifu, his back turned momentarilly to deal with something/someone else, turns around to see his patient on the floor looking mighty distraught, and 2 or 3 of us around him looking mighty helpless; without a word, he pushes us aside, and grabs a bottle of Tiger Balm (?); he then proceeds to dig a glob of it out with his finger (??); with his other hand, he grabs the guy by the jaw, and prys open his mouth (?!?!); he then SHOVES THE GLOB OF TIGER BALM INTO THE GUY'S MOUTH ( !!!!)

I've never seen anyone get up that fast; afterwards (after the gagging, that is), the guy said he didn't even know what he was tasting until we told him; actually, it makes sense- Tiger Balm is camphor, menthol and eucalyptis - all things that can snap you out of the greenies mighty quick, and nothing that'll kill you in the long run - but at the time, I freaked - I was like "Sifu, you can't do that!" and he was like "what're you talking about? it's fine!"; well, he obviously was right...although I can't say I'd try that in my clinic...

so, if anyone still has any doubts about Sifu Chan's propensity for radical behavior, well, I've made my contribution...

[Mr Punch]

There you go gentlemen

A lot of people are really enjoying the Chan Tai San thread. Quite apart from any possible disrespect to Ross's dead sifu, quite apart from whether you believe it or not (no-one has proof), it's kind of like shouting out 'That's crap!' in the middle of a movie everyone's enjoying at the theatre.

Cept Ross lived this movie, and he doesn't have a rep for BS or gullibility in many people's eyes.

Take it away.

[cerebus]

Good on ya' Mat!

[Vash]

I call bull**** . . .

just not on the Chan Tai San stories.

[Becca]

... But you are never going to get those worthless eyots to leave that thread alone. It smacks of respectability and this onw smacks of, well, smack. There is no fun in flaming here, they ain't gonna enrages us for messing up this thread.

[red5angel]

here's the way I see it - It's another kungfu story. The irony is this one is supposed to be true while all the others are not. The same people telling, and buying into this story, claim that many of the other so called examples of skill by other instructors are bullsh!t. Anyone else here seeing the irony?
I'm not saying it did, or didn't happen, I'm saying it sounds exactly like a dozen other kungfu stories that get a rise out of guys liek the ones telling, and believing this story.


As for dim mak and whatever. This chi crap has got to stop. Until it does, kungfu is a goner. If you study physics, and medicine enough (hint: it won't take a doctorate in either) then you will see that killing someone by hitting them is entirely possible without the "force", light side or darkside

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, I think most people can catch the irony. It's not that complicated.

But like I said, even if you don't agree, you can always come over here, leave Ross to his respect, and not be a killjoy for the many people who believe or who are willing to suspend their disbelief. This isn't Bullshido.

Personally, although I generally agree with the case for needing proof, I'm not with the 'you have to show me a video before I believe you exist' brigade either, and Ross has not mentioned chi, he has stated that somebody struck hard in a dangerous place died. To me that's not much more unbelievable than you existing.

Different times, different places, different beliefs.

Some people die in boxing. And most people in China in those days would not have been as conditioned as boxers or MMAers either, so why is it unbelievable? Add to that, not wearing gloves makes a difference. If it didn't people wouldn't need to wear gloves in MMA. And I know they are to protect the hands not the targets, but the fact is they make the hands bigger and less accurate.

And as for your science, you've just had testimonies (albeit secondhand) from Chris Jurak and Ross about medical possibilities. And those people were qualified.

Personally, I don't give a monkeys about whether these stories are true or not, but so far I'm enjoying them, and I think people should get some respect and stay off Ross's thread. And so far, we've had a few good points as to why they could be true, and nothing about why they can't.

[Newb]

Originally posted by Mat
He hears TWO OTHER GUYS stating that they thought a third guy was better than him. He then has them set up a fight with this third guy who THEY think might be better than him. He then uses a "deadly tecchnique" to intentionally kill the guy, who was pretty much just minding his own business.

Cough...bull...cough...****...cough.

Why would you say it's BS? I don't know if it is true or not, but it is plausable.

[Mr Punch]

Please note that's a quote from Knifefighter, not me!