Wing Chun and fighting-How to do it?

[Redd]

Originally posted by KPM
But I take offense at being lumped into any one group and labeled. The so-called "fighters" have some good points. But its the way they are presented and the broad brushstrokes used that I take exception to. KPM


Keith

They can't help it. Too many hits to the head.

[t_niehoff]

KPM wrote:

---So what things have you changed about your WCK based upon your "fighting" experience? I am not trying to be facetious or argumentative. I would truly like to know what insights you have gained and how you have changed your Wing Chun from the "traditional" way it is done based upon those insights. Again, this was the original intent of this thread. KPM

To be honest, I don't even think about it in that way. The number one thing that has changed is in how I train and teach WCK. That has changed my perspective. Terence

----Now come on Terence! Like I said before, that attitude is total .....B....S.....!

**I wouldn't expect you to know what I was talking about -- when you begin to practice WCK, you will see. If you never practice WCK, you won't.

What I have really taken exception to in your past posts is the constant implication that there is something wrong with following a "traditional" approach

**Of course one follows a traditional approach -- the forms, for example, are traditional, as are the drills like chi sao.

and sticking to doing things the way a specific lineage teaches (which, BTW, does not exclude using progressive sparring drills).

**If a lineage tries to enforce a certain way of doing things, then the student of that lineage will never achieve significant results (in terms of fighting performance) regardless of "using progressive sparring drills."

You have supported the idea on more than one occasion that fighting should be what determines how you do your WCK, and not what your Sifu has taught you.

**That is exactly right -- there is no other way. This is what all fighters do, boxers, BJJ, muay thai, etc.

You even implied that whether one is using a K1 pivot or a heel pivot (which is a major biomechanical difference) should be determined by what works in fighting and not what your lineage teaches.

**You are so blinded by your lineage you don't see the forest for the trees. Look -- name anyone that fights at a high level, regardless of lineage, and if you look, you'll see that they *all* move/weight/stand on their toes (k1, ball of the foot, etc.). No good stand-up fighter, whether boxer, muay thai, kickboxer, wrestler, etc., puts their weight (except in transition) on their heels or "middle of the foot". And there is a reason for that: biomechanically, that provides us with the best way to move quickly, powerfully, etc. Anyone that fights with good people will begin to move on their toes because they'll have to. I don't move on k1 because Robert told me to; I move on k1 because it works for me.

You have come across as endorsing a very "Jeet Kune Do-like" approach to Wing Chun.

**Theoreticians are always concerned with "purity" of lineage, method, etc. They are WCK facists. They are trapped by their theoretical view of WCK.

Now you are asked to provide a few examples of how this approach has given you insight and changed how you perform and teach your Wing Chun and you can't do it???? You can't provide one example of something like "I have learned to do Bong Sau this way because in fighting I found.......", or "I no longer practice this as I was taught because I have not found it to have any fighting application...."?

**I don't think like that and never did -- I always considered those sorts of things examples of using the tools, not how they *should* be used by everyone. Someone can show you how to use a jab, but that doesn't mean *you* should use the jab that way. You may, you may not. You determine that works best for you by fighting. You learn to box your way, not as a poor clone of Mohammed Ali. You don't get it because you're not fighting.

If you are going to classify everyone with a "traditional" approach to Wing Chun as a "theoretician", then you darn well better be able to do more than just say "I don't even think about it that way", because that sure sounds like a "theoretician's" attitude to me. KPM

**I'm not classifying you, that's what anyone is that doesn't fight -- that doesn't actually use their WCK. If someone isn't actually swimming but does all kinds of stuff without getting in the water they are at best theoretical swimmers (it's all intelllectual babble to them).

[t_niehoff]

http://www.jkd-kbh.dk/sbg2.wmv

Though this is from the StraightBlast Gym, I think it may give some insight into what we've been discussing.

[chisauking]

KPM said: ...constant implication that there is something wrong with following a "traditional" approach and sticking to doing things the way a specific lineage teaches (which, BTW, does not exclude using progressive sparring drills). You have supported the idea on more than one occasion that fighting should be what determines how you do your WCK, and not what your Sifu has taught you.

Excellent insight, KPM. Problem is, most people don't spend long enough time with a good sifu to reap the benefit of the training and the experiance of the WC practitioners that have gone before. They are too impatient to take the time to build a strong foundation before taking to their kick boxing and BJJ.

Many of the so-called (injured) fighters will be angered by your post, because it struck a chord of truth. They delude themselves into thinking that they and they alone have the way, where in truth many have already trodden this ancient path. The information and experiences accumulated by our ancestors is priceless, but many would ignore this accumulative knowledge and choose to invent the wheel for themselves.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


I have to agree with Kieth on this:

Since this is a discussion board, and its all just words, we are all nothing more than Keyboard Warriors! So, how many are up for sending in footage?

I was thinking of something a few people have told me in the past that relates to this footage debate of it having value or no value! Then I remembered Hendrik also said the same thing:


As the old Chinese saying " with a move shown by an expert, one will recognized it
is or is it not". SLT, CK, BJ, DLT....... points.... all are names. That single move
itself shown not the name of how one catagorized his/her curricurum.

As the old Chinese saying " The outsider anticipate the busy party, and the insider
anticipate the depth of Kungfu".

A move is a move, but it says alots.
But then, how much moves one has to practice until a move says alots?


This is a classic Chinese saying! Its true. All of us could easily tell if something is quality or not. If something uses WC mechanics or not. If something looks powerful or not.

How many are willing to be part of this? We could just start with one clip and then see how it goes from there! Come on guys! Dont be shy! Here is an opportunity for us to really showcase the stuff we talk about and allow the rest to comment! BUT! Those who are not willing to participate lose all rights to comment IMO. It should be just for those who are willing to be part of this!


Who's up for it?

Hmmmmm?

(Me, Ernie, Vic, Sihing, and a few others are willing)


Regards,

[Ernie]

so let me get this striaght

in one corner we have traditionalist [so called non fighters ]
that don't want to be lumped into a group

in the other corner [ so called fighters ] that will use traditional methods but are not bound by lineage just seeking results

but the traditionalist that don't want lines in the sand drawn , have inturn drawn lines based on what they consider traditional and non traditional

and the [ so called fighters ] have no problem useing traditional methods


WOW !

so the dog chases the cat while they both chase there tails

good times


this is the best day time drama ever

time to go pop some pop corn and watch the show

[yylee]

Hey Ernie

Want one of these for Christmas?

battery not included

http://global.dymo.com/enUS/Products/LetraTAG.html

[Ernie]

[it features a simple ABC keyboard that's adult- and child-friendly.]

sounds like a few people on here would benifit from it ha ha ha

dude ,
i don't believe in labels , just treat people as individuals , they can call themselves what ever they like

normally when they get hit in the face all that traditional , lineage . non traditional modern stuff fly's out the window

and the individual comes out


but i know people need to feel special like the found some secret hidden magic key and they must protect it


to be honest i really don't understand it , since there is no proof that those old master were any good just alot of talk and non proven stories

and i'm not trying to dis people i really don't get the whole argument , it's not like the traditional guys are any better then any one else so for all that old scroll talk they still suck just like the rest =)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Who's up for it?

I'm am. However, if I'm going to go through the hassle of putting fight clips on the computer and uploading them to a site, I'd like to see people's clips of them actually fighting or sparring where each person is going full tilt.

There are already enough "demonstrations" of WC out there. Show some real time applications against opponents who are trying to beat you- otherwise it's just theoretical non-fighting.

[Wayfaring]

Want one of these for Christmas?
http://global.dymo.com/enUS/Products/LetraTAG.html

Naw, they won't stick to the skin.

Now these, on the other hand....
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1677853,00.asp



Dave

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I'm am. However, if I'm going to go through the hassle of putting fight clips on the computer and uploading them to a site, I'd like to see people's clips of them actually fighting or sparring where each person is going full tilt.

There are already enough "demonstrations" of WC out there. Show some real time applications against opponents who are trying to beat you- otherwise it's just theoretical non-fighting.

I can understand that also. I've already put some clips up and they can be seen at the website list under my name. Early in the new year I will get some clips of sparring and sparring drills put up also. It's a good idea to share IMO.

James

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Its a good idea to put up lots of stuff!

Sparring! Training! Chi Sao! etc etc etc..

But! You have to start somewhere so why not send in one clip of each other (anything) just as a start and go from there! Lets see what kind of respoce we get!

So far there are only 4 of us so its not looking too good! I'll say it again: How Sad! I dont get it! Actually, I think I do! What Ernie said about the lack of responce seems to be on the money.

"Nobody is confident enough in their precious art to share it with the public! That includes the Fighters and the Non Fighters!"

(not that those were his exact words but it seems to sum it up)


Guys and Gals! Its not about being great or terrible! Its about using modern technology to share and learn from each other! Just like we use the technology or the Internet to chat with other WCK and share and learn but this takes it one step further!

So! How about Jan. 1, 05 we all send in one clip to the UK web site that hosts it for free?


Who is up for it?

Ernie, Knifefighter, Victor, Me, Sihing ???

Is that it?

C'mon!


I will start a new thread on this!


Regards,

[KPM]

Originally posted by Ernie
so let me get this striaght

in one corner we have traditionalist [so called non fighters ]
that don't want to be lumped into a group

in the other corner [ so called fighters ] that will use traditional methods but are not bound by lineage just seeking results

but the traditionalist that don't want lines in the sand drawn , have inturn drawn lines based on what they consider traditional and non traditional

and the [ so called fighters ] have no problem useing traditional methods

WOW !

so the dog chases the cat while they both chase there tails

good times

---Exactly! This is the point I was trying to make before. It is not black and white. There is no "line in the sand." You cannot conveniently divide people into "fighters" and "non-fighters" as Terence does. There are different approaches and different degrees or levels of intensity in the various approaches.

Keith

[KPM]

Terence wrote:
**I wouldn't expect you to know what I was talking about -- when you begin to practice WCK, you will see. If you never practice WCK, you won't.

---There you go again. So now I don't even practice Wing Chun? It never stops does it? KPM


**If a lineage tries to enforce a certain way of doing things, then the student of that lineage will never achieve significant results (in terms of fighting performance) regardless of "using progressive sparring drills."

---The lineage gives you the tools and teaches you how to use them. In Chi Sau and sparring you learn how to make the tools work, but you still operate within the structure of Wing Chun. Of course a lineage "enforces a certain way of doing things", or you wouldn't be doing Wing Chun! But that doesn't mean you are rigidly required to only do things is a very particular way. On the other hand, it also means that we are not doing Jeet Kune Do and are therefore free to just change and adapt things to suit ourselves without good reason. Otherwise it wouldn't be Wing Chun! If you want to change and alter things to suit yourself, then do it! Just don't call it Wing Chun if it isn't! KPM

You have supported the idea on more than one occasion that fighting should be what determines how you do your WCK, and not what your Sifu has taught you.
**That is exactly right -- there is no other way. This is what all fighters do, boxers, BJJ, muay thai, etc.

---Then I will ask you again. Please provide examples of how fighting has determined what your WCK consists of as opposed to what your Sifu taught you. What have you changed about what you were originally taught based upon your own insights from fighting? What have you altered or rejected from your own lineage? That shouldn't be such a hard question to answer. And don't tell me that I "don't get it." That's another line of .....B....S..... Either you are doing the Wing Chun you were taught and are exploring how to make it work well (application), or you have changed the Wing Chun you were taught and are doing something different. KPM

You have come across as endorsing a very "Jeet Kune Do-like" approach to Wing Chun.
**Theoreticians are always concerned with "purity" of lineage, method, etc. They are WCK facists. They are trapped by their theoretical view of WCK.

---Throwing out the labels with broad brushstrokes again? I've been trying to get you to break out of your own "theoretician" approach and provide us with some concrete examples. But you seem unwilling to do this. I wonder why? I guess its time to give up the effort. KPM

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
The creation of the Wing Chun system was the shortcut, that's what the system is all about..

I once heard that the longest distance between two points is a shortcut. Food for thought......