Chan Tai San stories

[lkfmdc]

Chris, tell us what you really think

Wai Lun Choi is a good enough sort, but comparing him to Chan Tai San, big shoes to fill.....

The sparring however was f-in hideous

If Michael pops back in here, we need him to scan the pics of Sifu doing that ground set if he still has them.... someone stole my copies about 10 thousand years ago

[Anthony]

Two posts above by Chris Jurak and David Ross comment about what is wrong with the TCMA or why it's going to die out and I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. I think that the biggest problem with TCMA is that it's proponents are all talk. I mean you hear nothing but "secret training" or "this set and that set," "we have more forms"....blah, blah, blah, while the TCMA are really not producing any good fighters. So why wouldn't people look elsewhere to learn how to fight. If you (all of us in the TCMA community) want to prove that your martial arts style is great, get off the internet forum, forget the (supposed) history and lineage, walk down to Gleason's Gym in brooklyn and challenge their best guy to a street fight. Too many stlyes have proven themselves in some distant romanticised past (that probably never existed). Personally, I train because I like it.....I'd rather let a lawyer fight for me.

As far as people wanting their TCMA to look like the movies....well....guess what....that is how most people fall in love with TCMA in the first place. No body "NEEDS" TCMA training. Not in our society, and I doubt they did in the past in the way that it's boasted by TCMA stylists.

Sure there are TCMA people who could kick ass, but there are also unschooled fighters with no training that could wipe the floor with any of us (admit it). So how do you prove the fighting skill came from TCMA training (or that it's better than any other type of training). I have to admit that my grandfathers (any many other people unfortunately) could boast the same military and street fighting experience as Chan Tai San. China is not the only place that has ever seen violence, poverty, and war. Those people did not have TCMA and survived. How does survival in those cases prove TCMA ablity.

I know it' hard to set up standards for something like self-defense or martial arts for reality, but the lack of standardization in the TCMA is another big problem. I mean, you set up a system that no one else has, call yourself "master," and voila! you are the authority. "Don't question me....I'm the master!....you'll always be doing it wrong.....even though I've done nothing to prove myself.....I'm a great master of a very rare and deadly style that has so and so forms and such and such great lineage."

[Reign-Of-Terror]

as for the "sparring": I think I looked better my first match as a TKD white belt in 1985, when me and this other guy, Gregg Bodey (funny what you remember), faced off and simultaneously threw right rear-rleg round kicks full contact cracking shins real hard, then switched stances as we lined up again and did the same thing on the other leg!!! that other stuff was pure tripe

the guy sparring was his student and I think in those apps clips hes there as well. It was a bullshido throwdown, and hes the shorter asian guy with the swinging and downward arm motion (someone on bullshido said that its the Lama trademark).

[Brad]

Just curious, do you guys know if you have any kungfu "relatives" teaching in China? Old CTS students, his old classmates students, etc. that kind of thing

[jmd161]

Ross,


Sorry to interupt your thread.


I'm just curious, you've already acknowledged having met my sifu Fred Woo. Do you have any knowledge of Chan Tai San having met my Sigung Wong Cheung?


I ask because Wong Cheung also exchanged techniques and training with White Haired Devil (Hung Ju Sing/Baak Mou Jiu) I would think it had to have been around the sametime...

Wong Cheung also knew many great masters, so i wonder do you have any knowledge of the two having met?

I'm also pretty sure you having spent so much time with Chan Tai San, you can name many of the masters in this pic with Grandmaster Wong Cheung. The only ones i can make out are Hung Gar Grandmaster Chiu Kao and his wife Shu Ying .



jeff

[Shaolinlueb]

yeah who's the grandmaster of lama pai kung fu now?

[Anthony]

Just to add to my above post. I think it would be very beneficial to the MA community if martial artists were held to certain standards in order to be considered competent, great, etc. For instance, if i'm a great pianist and play concerts, certain critics might call me a "concert master" based on their standards for music. I couldn't just call myself master. I would have had to accomplish something first ( myself, not based on my teacher, or greatness of my style, or whatever). Michael Jordan is a master of basketball because he's proven it.

This would lead to alot less people talking crap. It would also improve the MA community because people would seek out training from those who proven that they know what they are talking about when it comes to training you. It would seriously minimize the many "hypothetical warriors" in the MA field, not to mention the fakes that we all hate.

This is why I commented on another thread that Chuck Norris does not suck. He's proven what he is.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

some articles I found:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/4098/
http://www.geocities.com/whitecranefist/mainmenu.htm
http://www.lama.tibetankungfu.com/index.html

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey Anthony, great post, I appreciate your opinion. Let me ask you this:

We understand gravity, right? I do not have to hold you out of a window and drop you on your head to prove it works though, right?

Martial arts is the same. I don't have to crack someone's head open to prove a technique works. It might prove whether I can beat you or not in a fight, but we can determine (if we have a decent 'martial IQ') if a technique is valid, right? We an spar with control and investigate the technique in a variety of circumstances. Discuss whether or not it's got speed, power, if it's difficult to counter, etc. No matter what though, everyone may still have a different angle or 'take' on the technique.

I speak for myself here, but I believe a lot of other people feel the same. "It's about the guy, not the style." A person may have 100 really good moves, but can be beat by the guy who knows his 5 moves better. That doesn't mean the guys 5 moves are all superior. It just means he applied them better, that's all.

And yes, there are many people who give CMA a bad name. A lot who give all marital arts a bad name. Some CMA are still living in MA fantasy world. But to trash CMA as a whole when some of the icons of it have done more than you and I will ever do....that's just plain ignorant. Think about it; You or I will probably never KILL anyone with our martial arts. Does that mean they or we are no good?

Give CMA it's credit. It spawned every known structured MA today. The chinese used to to defend attacks from every border (and they are pretty little guys) some guys were famous for killing people in real matches. KILLING PEOPLE. Don't be ignorant and join the few who 'haven't seen it happen, so it can't be true.' Kung-Fu isn't science fiction.


Best of luck in your training.

[Ford Prefect]

Just caught this last page. I understand what you're saying, but comparing your "martial IQ" with something that has mountains of peer-reviewed, objective scientic studies verifying and measuring it's effects is a little out there.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Coach Ross,

I was wondering if you could share with us the names and dates of Si-Gungs appearance in the newspapers for dispatching his would-be attackers. I would actually like to read the articles.

[Ray Pina]

To what age was your master able to fight, accept challenges, etc?

Did he pass on training that would allow you to be comfortable doing the same well into your 50s and 60s?

[unyma]

Correct me if I'm wrong CMA is about much more then fighting. The fighting is a means of evaluating what one has learned from a physical standpoint but it doesn't really represent the person. Has anyone ever trained under anyone that says fighting is all that matters? For me personally, I'm 43 years old, I haven't been in a fight since the sixth grade and truthfully I don't see myself gettng into one anytime soon. I study MA because of the journey. I learn to fight, and if I ever need to maybe I'll be able to apply some fo the MA I've learned, I certainly hope so, but more importantly I learn.

To Sifu Ross, thanks for this thread, I study Hop Gaa and I've learned a few things from this thread. I also think it's very important to pass on the stories because they represent the oral history of what we've done in the world. It saddens me that so much is lost through time and it seems that the small (relatively speaking) world of CMA loses more of its history every day.

Mitch

[5thBrother]

thanks for sharing all Chan Tai San Students!

please.

what was /is a typical week or class of White Crane kung fu training... OR under chan tai san a typical class entail what~!

thank you~


one of my teachers had a method for chellenge matches which was basically DRILL DRIL DRILL u in 2 or 3 combinations and bash u so much that u din fear to be hit (expedient iron body?! :P) and have u just "DO THE COMBO WITH BIG BALLS" to quote him... big balls is i guess trust and belief in the method/technique, and have guts! for da average opponent in those times.. a "tough" attituide with a tough (used to take hits) body and a full on aggressive attitude worked well

i guess its like ur white crane chan sik aggrsive attitude??

sorry to much weekend tequila...

white crane's "CHAN" method can u most some more on this please?

becasue i think this is an important part of real fighting?

excuse me and i hope u understand the last part of my question :P or else re: da first part whatwas a typical class with chan tai san? (beginner, imtermediate or what ever.. i iamgiane it was a case of "ON THE DAY" with him ?)

thanks~

[jmd161]

Correct me if I'm wrong CMA is about much more then fighting. The fighting is a means of evaluating what one has learned from a physical standpoint but it doesn't really represent the person. Has anyone ever trained under anyone that says fighting is all that matters? For me personally, I'm 43 years old, I haven't been in a fight since the sixth grade and truthfully I don't see myself gettng into one anytime soon. I study MA because of the journey. I learn to fight, and if I ever need to maybe I'll be able to apply some fo the MA I've learned, I certainly hope so, but more importantly I learn.

Mitch

Mitch,

This is not directed at you, but you did bring it up, so i'll use your quote.



I hear people say that they train martial arts for the journey or to find themselves,etc....

What journey?


You don't have to train CMA to find enlightenment, you don't have to train CMA to find yourself either. There are other ways to seek those paths without training in CMA.

CMA was used and created for combat, yeah there are other paths like health ,but first and foremost CMA is about fighting. This is where much of CMA has lost it's credability.

Why,

Because people put there goals and ideas on the arts they teach, thus the watering down of many a style. It's fine to use Taiji for health, but teach the martial aspects also. If the fighting aspect is not taught (applications,etc) then the martial aspect get's lost and distorted.

My sifu will be the first to tell you, "I learned kung fu strickly for fighting" , so to answer your question "Has anyone ever trained under anyone that says fighting is all that matters?"

Yes!!


My sifu knows the health and Chinese Medicine benefits,but he started learning just for the martial aspect. When he teaches, he teaches from that same view. First and foremost our training is about fighting, everything else is available as you continue your studies, but you're always getting the martial of the art also.

jeff