Chan Tai San stories

[Reign-Of-Terror]

sifu ross, can you describe the needle in cotton training?

[lkfmdc]

Mat, glad you liked the story, Chan Tai San generated hundreds of similar stories. The true history is never "clean"......

I have to sit down and start the book. I think I will start next month, a little at a time

[Reign-Of-Terror]

will the book include more information than what you provided on the forum and if so will you also write it here? Also will it include some llama style training regiments and techniques?

[Blacktiger]

Reign Of Tripe

[Reign-Of-Terror]

Some Lama clips I found:
http://xenetix.net/files/lama/

some sparring:
http://xenetix.net/files/bullshido/t...tVlama_xy2.ASF

[Royal Dragon]

ROT posted something very interesting here. The clips are of a a VERY respected Chicago area master by the name of Wai Lun Choi. I would really enjoy some comments from Ross, and other of Chan Tai San's students so far as comparing both versions of Lama.

Are they similar, different?

[David Jamieson]

hmmmn...interesting.

the videos in the first link include three with the suffix "form"

what i found interesting is that all three of those techs are found in the opening moves of -Gum gong kuen- from Sil Lum tradition.

No stories about CTS. Never met the guy and never heard of him until I read some of Dave's earlier posts back in the day. But then, I'm a canuck, got a heater in my truck and I don't give a f**k cause I'm off to the rodeo.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

ROT, thanks for posting those clips: I'll comment on these, and remember, this is MY opinion of them.

1. The style his is doing appears to be Lama (the techniques he is demonstrating are in our style)

2. His form is not very clean, it's very sloppy. I know he is not young, but at 75/80, my teachers form was cleaner. I don't aways equate clean form with better technique, BUT, there is an amount of time required to make your form good. If you don't have good form (I don't just mean for tournaments) how will your techniques be most effective? And if you put in the required time to be effective with your techniques, wouldn't that mean that the form would improve? (I'm scratching my head) The best fighters (in competition) usually have the most polished, smooth and well executed techniques. Best boxers, K-1 guys, BJJ, etc.

3. Although there are techniques which I could name here from watching the clips, I did not learn anything from GM Chan Tai San that looks like that! Plus, I thought the applications were a bit...shall we say unrealistic?

4. There were some very questionable things regarding footwork within the clips. My Teacher did NOT teach us to apply our Lama Pai Kung-Fu techniques in this manner. Not At All! Remember, Lama Pai Kung-Fu is Tibetan in origin. There are many concepts within the style that are foreign to CMA. However, you can learn a form or two, and apply them with CMA principles and you get something different from what the style is supposed to be. Anyone can learn a form and extract applicable techniques....it doesn't mean the are actually "using" the style correctly...you dig?

I'm not one for really commenting (not publically at least) but those techniques are not even similiar to what I teach today or what I was taught. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to WLC. I'm just commenting on what was shown and what was asked or my teacher's students.

As far as ROT, you made some very good comments in your last post. Again, it sound like a different thread you need to be on (a little Yoda there for ya).

But I agree with you on some points (please don't throw tomatoes at me, guys)

Saan Da has many similarities to Kickboxing. But they are different as well. Think about it. The kung fu we talk about here is without rules. It's wasn't about competition, or fame. It was about survival. At the time when me teacher was liviving in China and learning Kung-Fu...people killed each other, robbed and murdered. (Canton was a very and still is a poor part of china) Plus, WWII, the curltural revolution, it was a crazy time. We don't live in a country like that so it's hard to even get a handle on it. Additionally, Saan Da has rules that restrict your use of many (most) tecniques. You cannot claw, or grab they way we would if we were actually applying techniques for survival. Striking vital areas, (we all know lots) are out of the question as well.

Look at it this way: I'm kind of a big strong guy, I'm six feet tall and way about 220lbs. I hit the gym, lift, and train my kung fu almost every day. I can slice real red bricks in half like bars of soap, can hold 90lbs of weight in each hands with my fingers, can claw grip hold 5 gallon jars with both hands and can do two-finger push ups (index and middle) I can do many feats of strenght that baffel most bodybuilders. I don't say this to impress you (well..maybe a little) but to impress upon you that when you put a pair of gloves on me, you take away many of the skills I've developed that would allow me to survive real self defense situitation.

Wether it's wrestling, boxing, Saan Da or a submission bout, there are rules, right? If there were no rules, you wouldn't need so many different types of bouts!

The Kung-Fu I learned from my Sifu didn't come in a box. As a result, I don't fight with it in a box. (I'm not trying to disrespect Dr. Suess either) Not that I don't have respect for martial artists/athletes from diffent diciplines/styles and fighting schools, I do. I always have respect for skills learned and earned.

But ROT, it's hard to use many of our techniques in competition, not because they are so secret, but because of rules and the equipment you have to wear. You are always welcome, as anyone is, to visit me in my schools and discuss Kung-Fu stuff. This is not a polite or hidden challenge. I hope that is clear. The martial arts world would grow and prosper if it were less divided and people got along better.

I enjoy 90% of all the posts here, please don't hesitate to ask questions about me Sifu.

[David Jamieson]

Lama Pai Kung-Fu is Tibetan in origin

is it?

I thought that was just a political bridge made by the chinese.

I mean, seeing as the tibetans and the dalai lama himself have stated there are no Tibetan martial arts per se.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Yes, the style we now as Lama Pai Kung-Fu is Tibetan in Origin. It was originally called "lion's roar" by the Tibetans and was renamed "Lama Pai" or 'style/sect of the Lama Monks"

Although the Dalai Lama might proclaim that there are no official MA taught in Tibet, but there is a long history of martial monks (some were refered to as the Dob Dob) who protected the Dalai Lama and other monks.

As a result of the style coming into china in the 1860's, I'm sure the style was augmented (as all styles were/are) by those who learned it. The style that we practice as taught by my teacher is VERY different than other practitioners of the art that we see. This is probably due to the fact that we did not learn a 'fragmented' version of the style. Everyone else seems to have a small section of hand and weapon forms, no one else seems to do two-person sets from the style. We learned a TON of forms and sets, not to mention training methods and physicall skills associated with the style.

White Crane and Haahp Ga are examples of the styles fragmentation in the 1800's. They each have pieces of what we do, but not the whole pie (pai! ha!)

[David Jamieson]

only 19 more replies and this thread will reach number of the beast status!

21 and it becomes neighbour of the beast status!

[Shaolinlueb]

only 19 more replies and this thread will reach number of the beast status!

21 and it becomes neighbour of the beast status!

hell on earth, is bound to be released!!!

is that how the maiden song goes?

[lkfmdc]

New York City has one of the largest Tibetan populations outside of India right now. I know a number of Tibetans, including monks. I also have a student who married a Tibetan and lived in the Tibetan community in Northern India. Martial Arts is a hush hush subject, but it very certainly exists. The monks I know all say "I don't know any" but also say they've seen plenty

I know a guy who worked with the US intelligence community who met bodyguards of the Dalai Lama, they were all trained in traditional Tibetan martial arts....

That being said, Lama Pai is both a Tibetan and a non-Tibetan art. First and foremost, it was founded in what today is Qinghai province. At the time, that was part of Tibet, but today it is part of China. It was founded by an ethnic Han Chinese. It combined Tibetan, Indian, Mongolian, Manchurian and Chinese martial arts, since all those people lived in the Qinghai region at the time. Furthermore, for more than 100 years Lama Pai was done in southern China, influenced by those southern arts...

We have good reason to believe the system was already pretty large when Sing Lung brought it to southern China in the 1860's. Subsequently, it was definitely enlarged as both Wong Yan Lam and Wong Lam Hoi set up large schools and had many students.

They also had three classmates who are not well known. Two died early, so we pressume they didn't teach much. But Ho Chi Yu lived to his 90's and had students, but they were VERY secretive. We can't find any of his line really....

Then there is the "mystery line", the teacher who learned in Manchuria who is not from the Sing Lung line

[lkfmdc]

On the videos, I have dial up (I know, I know) so it took a while...

the sparring is crap, sorry, but really bad.... didn't even see anything resembling lama in it??

Sifu Choi doing basics, like Michael said, Sifu Chan Tai San was cleaner even at an advanced age.... Sifu Choi does appear to have good power though, and yes, it is similar to some of what we do

The applications are rather basic, adn the fact they aren't using any gear and holding back makes it look sloppy... not really bad, but IMO either put on some gear and go fast, or show it slow, this is sort of half arsed

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting crtique. This is the first time I Have ever heard critisizum of Wai Lun Choi. He is predominantly a Li Ho Ba Fa Sifu, but I have heard his first experiances were in Lama Pai. I wonder if his LHBF has bled into his Lama maybe?