Chan Tai San stories

[lkfmdc]

The same month I saw Chan Tai San in Tin Yik, Stephen Laurette came to me and Steve Ventura and asked us if we wanted to meet this old teacher he had studied with the year before. Laurette said that he'd lost track of the guy, but he had bumped into him the other day on the street and gotten his new address.

I met Stephen Laurette when I was doing Shuai Jiao with Jeng Hsin Ping. Laurette was an extremely skilled 7 Star Praying Mantis person, and also quite a scholar. He had studied with Sifu Chiu Leun in Chinatown for many years. Laurette had picked up quite a lot of Cantonese, and also could read and write pretty well. Like a lot of guys in TCMA, he wanted to learn more of the applications. For that reason, he decided to study Shuai Jiao to compliment his Mantis.

I had read the Shuai Jiao articles over the years and liked the idea of wrestling the "kung fu way". I had done western wrestling and Hapkido, in addition to the Hung ga Kahm Na (Qin Na or Chin-Na). When I saw a flyer for Shuai Jiao lessons in NYC, I jumped at the opportunity and also found my way to the lower eastside, where I met Laurette.

Honestly, I grabbed Laurette the first day because he was the biggest guy there. I figured if I could learn to throw him, I could learn to throw anyone! But we ended up getting along for more than that. Laurette was always up to learn something new, and we ended up exchainging Mantis and Hung Ga over the years as well as doing Shuai Jiao together...

Laurette had met Chan tai San because Sifu Chan's wife was Chiu Leun's cousin. That's just the way stuff worked in Chinatown those days. Laurette found Sifu Chan strange, to say the least, but could appreciate that he had stuff that apparently NO ONE else had... Sifu Chiu had told Laurette that Sifu Chan was a unique guy... that was true on many levels.

[Knifefighter]

... if he did a joint lock, you hit the floor, and he didn't
stop just because you tapped. I said it before, we flipped coins to see who would ask for an application next, because when
you did, pain was inevitable

When it comes to joint locks, the less skilled you are, the more you hurt your students when demonstrating on them. A person skilled with joint locks will never hurt their students when demonstrating.

If anyone reading this post is new to joint locks and submissions, DO NOT think that you should feel pain when your instructor is demonstrating them to you. If you ever train with a teacher who hurts you when applying joint locks, you should find a new teacher immediately. The teacher who hurts his students when demonstrating locks is either clueless or a jerk.

[BAI HE]

That's just garbage. Joint locks hurt period. Especially if you have nerve endings.
That's the reality of it. It's not kiddie **** and it's intregal to understanding how they function.

Yes, if a teacher really damages you during a demonstration? That should be cause for alarm and then you might want to think about what Knifefighter said.

[Knifefighter]

The only times joint locks should hurt is when you are sparring or fighting and don't tap in time.

Joint locks should never hurt when an instructor is demonstrating them on you. If this is happening, the instructor is completely clueless. An instructor who is competent in joint locks will be able to put exactly enough pressure so that you can feel the secured lock without feeling pain.

What is garbage is the fact that people who have only trained with incompetent instructors don't realize this.

[Knifefighter]

I’m a black belt in BJJ, so I believe I have a pretty good understanding of joint locks and submissions. As far as my understanding of anatomy, I also have a degree in exercise science of which anatomy courses played a pretty significant role.

In sparring and competitions, joint locks are applied fast and hard, but even an intermediate level practitioner learns to tap fast enough so that injuries, while they do occur, are kept to a minimum. Obviously, in a life or death fight, joint locks are taken to the extreme and the joints are blown out as forcefully as possible.

Teaching joint locks is a completely different matter. A teacher who is competent in joint locks WILL NOT have to cause pain to his students in order to demonstrate the effectiveness of joint locks. He will be able to immobilize that student so that if the student attempts to escape the pressure can be gradually increased so the student understands exactly what would happen if the pressure
continued to be increased further.

And yes, any teacher who hurts his students- even if they are advanced- either on purpose or accidentally when teaching them joint locks and submission is either incompetent when it comes to joint locks, or a jerk, or both.

As far as immobilizing someone based on anatomy, that’s exactly what a grappler does when he has side control or is mounted on his opponent and applies a joint lock from there.

[Knifefighter]

Common sense? I think it is you who needs to work on his reading comprehension. Notice the operant words were sparring or fighting. Beginners should be very gradually introduced to sparring so they learn when to tap. And they certainly aren't going to be doing full on fighting.

Most injuries that occur are during sparring and competitions among the
intermediate and advanced students- AND NOBODY SHOULD BE GETTING INJURED WHEN THE INSTRUCTOR IS TEACHING TECHNIQUES.

I guarantee a competent instructor could demonstrate a technique on a spazzing newbie without him escaping or being hurt.

[lkfmdc]

I’m a black belt in BJJ, .

Is your name also Elmer J Fudd and do you own a mansion and yacht? Most of the time I just ignore you, because your posts don't merit much attention. But if you are gonna make the claim, BACK IT UP. What is your full name. Who did you get your black belt from? I know plenty of people in the community and can check up on you very quickly....

so I believe I have a pretty good understanding of joint locks and submissions.
.

What you "believe" and reality might be quite different. First of all, you have a LIMITED view on joint locking, from your own admition, only BJJ. Now, of course, I can point out 2000 stories I have of people getting cranked in BJJ by NAME people, Gracies even. I suppose Rickson, Royce, Renzo are all "jerks"? No, you don't have to answer. We've determined who the jerk is.

I have a second degree black belt in Hapkido, spent a year with one of the top Shuai Jiao people in the world (Jeng Hsin Ping) and have rolled with top Judo, Sambo and BJJ people. Chan Tai San was EASILY the most skilled fighter I've ever met, PERIOD.

I'm sorry that his skills are so deept they escape your grasp. Maybe someday when you grow up you can picture more than the trees.

Let's examine in more detail the limits of your conceptions

an intermediate level practitioner learns to tap fast enough so that injuries, while they do occur, are kept to a minimum.
.

Well, first off, you just contradicted yourself, wow, injuries DO happen huh? Read above my experience with many people injured in BJJ training. By the way, those include blue, purple, brown and even REAL BJJ black belts...

Second, my guess is your entire experience appears limited to sport BJJ. Chan Tai San grew up having to use his skills for REAL, so he applied his skills as you would in the street, full power and full speed.

I suggest you pick up a book and read about Judo, you can read can't you? One of the primary problems with old Jujitsu was that it was always practiced like Chan Tai San practied it, hard and fast. So injuries kept training from reaching the masses so to speak. Randori, ie giving time to tap, was a Kano invention, a good one of course, but you're missing the point. Chan Tai San was old school.

In sport BJJ, you feel the submission coming, sure, the guy can still pull it off, but you have that "sinking feeling", that's why you can learn to get out of it. Chan Tai San's locks were instant. Now, I'm not claiming I can do this, but trust me, there are tons of people who can testify to the fact Chan Tai San did it...

Teaching joint locks is a completely different matter. A teacher who is competent in joint locks WILL NOT have to cause pain to his students in order to demonstrate the effectiveness of joint locks.
.

Again, sadly, you are lookng at the world through sport BJJ colored glasses. Chan Tai San didn't come from Rio, didn't have a tan and didn't surf. He came from a nasty, poor, violent 3rd world country (ok, Brazil qualifies as that as well, you got me!). He came from a time when you were never sure if your own students were going to challenge you. So he set a tone. I know, probably this deep talk is way over your pretty head, but it's true none the less. He wanted to leave no doubt who was in charge, and never did.

And yes, any teacher who hurts his students- even if they are advanced- either on purpose or accidentally when teaching them joint locks and submission is either incompetent when it comes to joint locks, or a jerk, or both.
.

Dear lord, I guess you're calling every single member of the Gracie and Machado families jerks and incompetants. Poor trolling on your part, you're gonna have to work on your game

[Knifefighter]

acting like lama? A bug?

The point of my post is that cjurakpt apparently doesn’t use these two techniques in anything other than in forms or on complying people who are standing like rag dolls. If he was actually attempting to use these techniques against resisting opponents who are halfway skilled, he would know that they don’t work. Any high school kid who has wrestled for six months knows that the "ulnar nerve pressure point" crap is pretty much useless.

[SifuAbel]

Thats not a why, df.

[SifuAbel]

The point of my post is that cjurakpt apparently doesn’t use these two techniques in anything other than in forms or on complying people who are standing like rag dolls. If he was actually attempting to use these techniques against resisting opponents who are halfway skilled, he would know that they don’t work. Any high school kid who has wrestled for six months knows that the "ulnar nerve pressure point" crap is pretty much useless.

Doesn't this contradict your previous position?

[Knifefighter]

How much are you really resisting if nobody ever gets hurt?
If he resists to some degree, he will get hurt. Pain is the only thing a resisting fighter respects. Unless you're in the movies,
you can't conduct your actions half a$$ and expect your lock to work. Funny how your arguments against traditional kung fu
don't apply to you.

You must not do joint locks in sparring or in competitions. If you did, you would know that, while injuries do occur, anyone past the very novice level learns to tap before the injury occurs. Competitors resist full force until right before the joint is locked out. If this wasn’t the case, submission competitors would be injured all the time.

Well, maybe the locks I'm thinking about are against your rules.

When I roll, any lock is allowed.

[Mr Punch]

A person skilled with joint locks will never hurt their students when demonstrating. ...If anyone reading this post is new to joint locks and submissions, DO NOT think that you should feel pain when your instructor is demonstrating them to you. If you ever train with a teacher who hurts you when applying joint locks, you should find a new teacher immediately. The teacher who hurts his students when demonstrating locks is either clueless or a jerk.

The only times joint locks should hurt is when you are sparring or fighting and don't tap in time.

BJJ blackbelt, and a degree in exercise science...? What qualifications do you have in common sense?!

Here you are advising beginners to choose a new teacher if their teacher hurts them, and then you are saying that if the beginner doesn't know when to tap it will hurt him... looks like your poor beginner's never gonna get a lesson!

I agree that a teacher who regularly hurts people in training locks is probably incompetant, or in CTS's case from a different cultural perspective (hence my unanswered question on the last page about 'when did CTS stop'), but until you get used to the locks you will get hurt. This is natural.

When your muscles get used to the stress, and more importantly, you get used to knowing what's coming and when to tap, it shouldn't hurt so much. And as for your teacher, to put you in a position where you understand the lock, a lot of beginners and people who think they can muscle out of it will try to do so, thus causing pain. This is not the teacher's fault, and IMO is a good, if sharp, learning curve.

[SifuAbel]

fifth, we were Sifu Chan's advanced students - we all had background in other types of joint lock systems - we knew what we were getting into, all joking about flipping coins aside, and were looking for a more satisfying experience than we had had in other styles where we didn't feel quite convinced that the locks worked without uke's agreement or an unrealistic set-up - so he knew what our agenda was - did it ever occur to you that for the BEGINNERS Sifu Chan was a lot different? for the beginners, it was a whole different story - he treated them with kids gloves, and NO beginner ever got hurt by him in my experience in the years i was with him;

sixth, with all due resect again, where do you get off labling Sifu Chan as a jerk or as cluless? who do you think you are insulting someone else's teacher having never met him or experienced his art?

Oh lord.......
Read slowly , you'll actually get it this time. You aren't actually disagreeing, but you are being an ass.