About the internal aspect of Wing Chun

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by Tydive
How about this. Chi is a byproduct of intent or the lack thereof. When you are "in the now" your Chi will flow. If you are thinking about the end result of your action (or anything other than the reality of now) then your chi will be disrupted by that compeating intent... Thus when you know SLT to the point where it does not take thought you can experience the "internal" development... just as you could with any other moving meditation technique.

Hendrick, very interesting post.

Tom, lets here more about golgi tendon exercises.

Ali, one of these days I really want to talk with you about how you use Chi and to see if some of my ideas/experiences are in line with yours.

Good Post:

That’s how it works, I feel only after you understand the proper concepts and techniques, can things become natural and without thoughts, it takes “Patience” too develop a high level of chi kung. Good post!

Ali Hamad Rahim.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
So, there is no gate no door within the same realm, one must go beyond. similar to cross over the castle via helicopter.

contradiction to lots of other's believe that SLT is to learn this or that or get this kiu sau or that tan sau..... SLT is about un HARD Wiring! Not about making something. but not making anything and pay attention to the process of the execution or the set of the moves.

Thus, when some master tell thier students do that Little idea set. he is telling them to just drop those mind chatter, but observe, aware ... and working with doing the UN HARD WIRE. But today, people carry things into the opposite directin of try to making something.

That's why when I first learned Wing Chun from a Yip Man student called Patrick Chow, "In my first lesson from Patrick Chow, we stood in the SLT pigeon toe stance and just did the slow part of the Tan sau/Fook sau cycle over and over again for an hour straight. He said this represented 1/4 of the Wing Chun system. All the students except me were Chinese and so they accepted this and I followed along. In the first year only the first third of the form was covered along with single sticking hands, turning, stepping with the punch, double punching to develop power, Pak sau and Lap sau." (YongChun)

However modern people as in this thread don't like that anymore:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...5&pagenumber=2


"This kind of thing has no place in today's world, imo.
Total waste of the student's time and money."
__________________
Victor Parlati

"IMO,students nowadays want (or need?) to be entertained or they will simply vanish away,as I said earlier.There were benefits with that slow "classical" approach. The foundations were built before the roof and everything was solid before going to the next item.But times change! We have to give them what they want and they want more and faster."
-Michel.

Ray

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Intriguing post Tom. What are some of the threshold changing exercises that you refer to?

"Chi" means "air." How do you cultivate chi? Breathe so you don't die.
-- heard from Moy Yat, who attributed it to Wong Shuen Lueng

Concentrating on normal training methods primarily aimed at training the nervous system, the muscle spindles, and, of course, the muscles themselves will indirectly train the golgi tendon organ (GTO). Essentially, anything which causes thickening of the tendons and sinew, along with increasing 'starting strength' from the muscle, will have an excellent byproduct of reseting the body's prioceptive thresholds controlled by the GTO in addition to reseting the body's other prioceptive thresholds (controlled primarily by the muscle spindles).

In order to benefit from training specifically targeting the GTO, you would have to be at a point where the body's neuromuscular junction and its muscle spindles can allow the muscle to contract to a stiffness above the stiffness of the tendon. It is at this point where the the elastic energy of the tendon comes into major play.

Reaching a point where a person can specifically target the GTO in training can only be considered for a person who is entering into the elite levels of athleticism. Unless a person can conjure a psychotic episode at will ( to oldjong), it is only an elite athlete who can reach the point where, at will, their muscle can contract to a tension stiffer than the tendon attached to it. Before that point, it is best to ignore specific training for the GTO because it would guarantee injury.

Even at that point where specific training of the GTO might prove beneficial, it is some of the most injury prone training an athlete can endure for their craft. In nearly every case, it is infinitely smarter and more beneficial for an athlete to spend training effort elsewhere and continue to allow the body to take care of itself indirectly in resetting the specific prioceptive thresholds involved in GTO activation.

[Vajramusti]

Good post Tom. Thanks.

BTW-chi has many meanings- air is only one of them for those who use a chi paradigm. Not debating paradigms. Thx

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Good post Tom. Thanks.

BTW-chi has many meanings- air is only one of them for those who use a chi paradigm. Not debating paradigms. Thx

You are quite welcome.

An interesting story: I once had the pleasure of meeting a very old and skilled White Eyebrow Martial Art practitioner. He demonstrated to me his ability to produce a great deal of power from a very small movement (i.e. inch power). One of my SiHings with me asked the gentleman how he was able to do this. His reply was that he used his chi to coil his spine and latch it in place. When he needed to, he popped the latch and his spine would unwind instantly. (Thank goodness I was able to supress laughing. )

Chi which is quantifiable and measurable is infinitely more interesting and relevant than chi which defies comprehension. So, I could tell someone to "cultivate your chi so you can one day coil and latch your spine." Or, I could tell them to just breathe, relax, stop worrying about it, just keep training hard and go waste someone else's time if they want a more dubious explanation.

I fully recognize that chi has many meanings - some at odds with each other. It's just that I much prefer the wordless gesture. Air is far easier to understand (well, at least potentially ). Can you say the same for some other paradigms regarding chi which you don't wish to debate?


Frankly, if just 1/10 of the claims for chi were true, a bunch of tiny 80 year old men and women would win every medal at every event during every Olympics.

[Vajramusti]

Tom-
Some comments on your post after snips just for reference points.

I once had the pleasure of meeting a very old and skilled White Eyebrow Martial Art practitioner. He demonstrated to me his ability to produce a great deal of power from a very small movement (i.e. inch power).

((What is your explnation of his power))

Chi which is quantifiable and measurable is infinitely more interesting and relevant than chi which defies comprehension.

((Lots of things that are difficult to measure are nevertheless
interesting and real -and has empirical consequences...like love))

Or, I could tell them to just breathe, relax, stop worrying about it, just keep training hard and go waste someone else's time if they want a more dubious explanation.

((For wing chun - doing the motions "right"-will develop the necessary chi over time without metaphysical discussions. But doing it "right" is not easy- and a mechanical chart can miss the nuances))

I fully recognize that chi has many meanings - some at odds with each other.

((Of course- differences in details of meaning and confusions shows up in most fields of knowledge. But one does not need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Whitehead hada theory of relatovity. So did Einstein. Some overlapping meanings but
Einstein's was more accptable than Whitehead's though both had explanatory power))

It's just that I much prefer the wordless gesture.

((Didnt follw you))

Air is far easier to understand (well, at least potentially ).

((Air is... but when you get into issues on how best to oxygenise the body- it is not simple))

Can you say the same for some other paradigms regarding chi which you don't wish to debate?

((Same- what? Easy to understand? Lots of important things are not easy to understand. Distrust of superficial clarity and trying to clarify things that are murky can sometimes be an important path to knowledge.
This is not the place to debate and I am disinclined to do so anyway. But some glimpses of a POV:

1. The notion of "pneuma" was once known in the west (Stoics-
fire and energy). Combinations of materialism and spiritualism
arrested that understanding. Kant however touches on the noumena- though for him it was unmeasurable- but part of the world nevertheless.
2.Some folks in China and India and in some other traditional societies took the equivalent of pneuma seriously- giving it different names- prana, chi etc. The implications are many- in TCM, ayurveda, yoga, chi gung, acupuncture, internal martial arts-
chen taiji, alternative medicine. healing while avoiding the side effects of medications, bio feedback, blood pressure control, unlocking thebody's own healing powers. No one can master all of these things and sure there is a lot of fakery by some... just as there are lots of ineffective quacks who practice medicine.


Frankly, if just 1/10 of the claims for chi were true, a bunch of tiny 80 year old men and women would win every medal at every event during every Olympics.

((Non sequitur. Straw man argumentation. When the details of a competitive sport is specified- a traing program emerges. But even here in the west there is the development of "sport psychilogy" not just mechanics.
Incidentally the Chinese have really progressed in swimming- and while there was suspicion of "drugs"--the coaches pointed out that there are common Chinese herbs that are not steroids.
Also some Asian psychologial models avids much of the mind body dualism of other psychologies. No debate and enough rambling.
If I were sprinting I would talk to sprinting coaches. But if I wanted to know what good fajing was -I wouldnt be looking ata bio mechanics text- I would be talking to someone who can do it.)) sorry- no proofreading of keyboard mistakes. Cheers. Joy

[yylee]

interesting notes on GTO, Tom.

little bit more on GTO in MMA....

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale45.htm


question is, can SNT/Chi Sau training lessen the negative effects of GTO? use Chi? ... use Intent? ...or use whatever just do it? Like the article above says: "When an athlete is attempting to exert maximal muscular contraction, subconscious as well as conscious mechanisms are at work".

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by yylee
interesting notes on GTO, Tom.

little bit more on GTO in MMA....

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale45.htm


question is, can SNT/Chi Sau training lessen the negative effects of GTO? use Chi? ... use Intent? ...or use whatever just do it? Like the article above says: "When an athlete is attempting to exert maximal muscular contraction, subconscious as well as conscious mechanisms are at work".

Interesting stuffs!

what phase in Keng geng start with concentric phase or eccentric phase of the SSC?

[yylee]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Interesting stuffs!

what phase in Keng geng start with concentric phase or eccentric phase of the SSC?

another one http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale18.htm

"The deadlift and squat stimulate very similar movement patterns, but almost everyone can perform more weight in the squat than they can the deadlift. One reason being the squat begins with the eccentric phase. In comparison the deadlift begins with the concentric phase of the exercise; thus eliminating the SSC. The SSC preserves energy due to the storage of elasticity in the tendons and muscles. "

As you have heard, I don't know squat about Keng Geng

[Ultimatewingchun]

Chi...is an invisible, electro-magnetic energy that permeates every inch of space. It's everywhere. In the water - in our bodies - in the food we eat (which often results in a "burst of energy")...and ESPECIALLY in the AIR.

So when we breathe - we replenish our bodies with chi. ALL THE TIME. (We breathe more often than we eat or drink, for example).

And when we breathe with PURPOSEFUL INTENT (ie.- with a visualized and/or mindful intention of directing our energy-breath-power-bloodflow-light...etc. (pick your metaphor)...to a SPECIFIC place in the body - we are capable of developing a concentrated one-pointedness of our "internal (non-muscular) energy"...although indeed it can flow through and enhance (especially if we are relaxed)...our muscular movements with that extra added....CHI...ENERGY...SOMETHING.

But Tom is correct...the biggest CARRIER of chi - for all practical purposes...is AIR.

Hence so many esoteric traditions down through the ages have taught some form of breath control (ie.- following the breath during meditation...during prana yoga...while jogging....every physical activity is enhanced by proper breathing - because hidden within the air - and within the blood - and within our physical muscle movements...

There is this invisible, electro-magnetic energy we in CMA call chi...ki to the Japanese...prana to the Hindus and Buddhists, etc.

[old jong]

I like to see the internal thing as:"Moving with the spirit and letting the physical body follow".

There are two distinct aspects in this discussion: The pure energy ,present everywhere at our disposal and,the mind/spirit/body connection,necessary to "control" it if I can use that term.
There is also a gray area between the "intent" and the "awareness" without being attached to thoughts.

We also know that various athletes use the mind and visualisations for better results etc...

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by yylee
another one http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale18.htm

"The deadlift and squat stimulate very similar movement patterns, but almost everyone can perform more weight in the squat than they can the deadlift. One reason being the squat begins with the eccentric phase.


In comparison the deadlift begins with the concentric phase of the exercise; thus eliminating the SSC. The SSC preserves energy due to the storage of elasticity in the tendons and muscles. "

As you have heard, I don't know squat about Keng Geng

Does that means squat elimating the ssc?

So is Keng Geng similar to deadlift or squat? is sun punch similar to deadlift or squat? is biu jee similar to deadlift or squat?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

But Tom is correct...the biggest CARRIER of chi - for all practical purposes...is AIR.

thus I have heard,

air is a component of producing the Chi.
Food is another component, physical body is another components. relaxation of physical body contribute to the smooth flow of the Chi. and one can sense the thermal flow changes to monitor the chi's flow and intensity.

for practical purpose, one can have all the air but without the food and body. there is no chi.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by old jong

There is also a gray area between the "intent" and the "awareness" without being attached to thoughts.

Thus, I have heard

The practice of Buddhism suggest two practices

1, concentration practice or Tze in Chinese
2, Observation practice or Kuan in Chinese

concentration lead to mastering the intent function
observation lead to awareness

one will not be able to aware fully,
one will not be able to intent fully , when attached to thoughts.
beyond thought realm there is the intuitive realm. and there, the "silence or stillness" amplified.
The Tze and Kuan lead one to travel into intuitive realms and above........

can understand what happen in the intuitive realm with the thought realm .

in order to master a realm, one has to get to a realm beyond it.

[yylee]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Does that means squat elimating the ssc?

So is Keng Geng similar to deadlift or squat? is sun punch similar to deadlift or squat? is biu jee similar to deadlift or squat?

I don't know squat about weight lifting but I think the paragraph says squat begins with eccentric phase so SSC energy kicks in.

I think your question really is: is SSC used in Keng Geng, sun punch or biu jee? and if so, which phase of the motion is storing energy.

my goodness, you are asking me to use my brian on a saturday?!