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Thread: OT - UK peeps please read and do something !

  1. #1
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    Exclamation OT - UK peeps please read and do something !

    Up to 650 members of the Black Watch are about to be moved to Najaf. This would put them under direct control of the US Army in an area the US Army has made a real mess of.

    In just about any newspaper online or on your kitchen table you can read complaint from all ranks of US soldiers about the handling of this war. Plus, if you hit the archives, you can find ****ing reports from UK soldiers from when they were actually fighting side-by-side, before the command had the prudence to split them up.

    The problems;

    1) Half-hearted campaigns:

    For example, the first Falluja campaign, abandoned half-way through for political expediency by Bush and his cronies. It put hundreds of US soldiers at risk; the objectives weren't clear and the objective of 'removing terrorists from Falluja' shows such an ignorance of the situation, started as a a rallying call to patriotism from the US people; it raised civilian casualties, animosity and potential terrorists, and in the process conveniently further blurred any distinction between civilian and combatant casualties.

    Eg 2; the fighting in Najaf. Ostensibly to capture Moqtada al Sadr, a man who on scores of occasions offered to give himself up under the proviso that he be allowed to negotiate, a man who started his campaigning career in Iraq by recommending that his people collaborate with the occupying forces, but due to a lack of dialogue started to allow his people to fight, and then started actively supporting them for political reasons... ALL because (a) the US high command (in this case the highest - Bush, Rumsfeld et al) didn't want him to stand as a legitimate politician.

    This campaign lost a potential strong political ally, and further marginalized a volatile Sunni population, causing needless bloodshed among Iraqi people fighting for their homeland (in this case epecially, these people do not see themselves as terrorists or insurgents... they see themselves as protectors of a shrine, their homes and their political leader) and putting countless US soldiers in a shooting alley with an impossible objective, no way out and no recourse to negotiations at a higher level, when that option had been available since the start.

    These two camaigns (not to mention at a higher level the disappearance of Colin Powell from the political scene at a crucial time - a tried and tested general, a Secretary of State, a proven negotiator, an honest straightforward man, whose opinions have been ignored and spun till the cows come home) point to a gulf between US Army commanders and the politicians back home that is now going to result in 650 men of our overstretched army going into a blood bath to clear up George Bush's mess.

    2) Private contractors;

    One in ten of the US army in Iraq comes from corporate armies... mostly Dyncorp and Blackwaters, and although Halliburton and KBR supposedly don't have any soldiers some of their 'defense contractor' roles must come pretty close. This is according to Fortune Magazine, no lefty whine-rag, but a magazine for big business, the magazine of Fortune 500 companies.

    And again, according to just about everyone else in Iraq, these mercenaries are not directly answerable to the US army command. Of course, if they refuse/ignore/disobey too many orders they won't get their contracts renewed but there are far too many grey areas and lapses of responsibility and accountability for this to be a safe area on a modern battlefield of multinational forces yet.

    3) Ignoring advice;

    This whole campaign has been based on the top guys in Washington (Bush and his war cabinet) ignoring advice from their own army, their own contractors, Middle East diplomatic experts, Chalabi and countless other Iraqi would-be puppets and high-ups, community leaders, and most importantly for the 650 from the Black Watch, the UK armed forces.

    This is why the UK forces, although in a marked flashpoint themselves, have sustained a lower casualty rate, a better morale, a better dedication to the job, and a far better relationship with the people in the areas they are occupying, with many of the soldiers speaking basic Arabic. Whereas, the American grunts, if you read their letters, are consistantly questioning why they are there (despite having more support from back home than the UK soldiers) and consistently wondering why they can't just go and shoot things (through inadequate training in sensitive issues).

    4) Falluja;

    In an amazing U-turn again by the Bush admin, the reason the Black Watch are going to have to go and wipe the US army's arses in Najaf, is according to the US army, to free up the US army to go and kick some more ass in Falluja. This is the same Falluja that the army didn't want to go into, but Rumsfeld did, and the same Falluja that the army then didn't want to pull out of, but Rumsfeld did. And now, quite frankly I've no idea why they're going back or who wants to and who doesn't but you're talking about a large city with a delicate mix of genuine insurgents, genuine terrorists, civilians, and genuine people worried about their homes and families, and the first attempt to take it resulted in enormous casualties on both sides and a huge upsurge in anti-occupier support through the whole country.

    5) Friendly fire;

    Are we the only ones who remember the A10 tankbuster bombing the convoy of British army vehicles on TWO runs? The US army do not seem to put much stead in educating their soldiers even as to their allies equipment (not to mention a ****ing huge Union Jack or two). What is there to suggest that under US command they can guarantee any safety from their 'go-pill'ed up army anyway? There haven't been any friendly fire incidents recently... but maybe that's because they've been cities apart!

    What you can do:

    1) Please telephone your MP today (Monday). Don't just write, it'll take a while and this is the kind of decision made overnight.
    2) Please write to your MP today. Support what you're saying in the phone call.
    3) Please write or cut n paste this letter to other forums you are a member of.
    4) Please write or use this letter to newspapers you read.

    Don't go overboard, use what you know... my objections are in order of importance;

    1) The UK army going into Najaf, a badly mismanaged area, completely out of line with the successful management of UK army-controlled areas;
    2) The UK army going under US army command.

    and of lesser importance;

    3) The US army going back into Falluja.


    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...329369,00.html
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

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  2. #2
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    This will surely put Blair in the limelight and he really enjoys being in the limelight! So...Prepare for heavy casualties.

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    Lime light?

    Blair is taking loads of flak over this, at a time when he really dont need any more.
    LOL.. really, what else did you hear?.. did you hear that he was voted Man of the Year by Kung-Fu Magizine?

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    Hey,Mat. Can you post a link to the Forbes article that states 1 in 10 US fighters is a merc or private army? I looked through the last 4 months papercopies of mine andcan find nothing. I find it interesting as that sort of thing is highly illegal in the US.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    you're kidding? i would love to drink that beer just BECAUSE it's in a dead animal...i may even pick up the next dead squirrel i see and stuff a budweiser in it

  5. #5
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    Ultimately Blair made the decision to support the US in this Crazy war, he has to stick by it, if that means more of our lads coming home in body bags then he has to stick to the course.

    Some say the request is political to keep Bush in Office, that may have been a factor. Things are going to get worse, for Iraq as we all know guerilla warfare is practically impossible to defeat. I can see this going on for years, and when we leave the extremists will no doubt take over the country, then it will be back to square one. Yes this war really has made the world a safer place
    Last edited by Internal Boxer; 10-19-2004 at 06:19 AM.

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    Unfortunately I can't. It was Fortune, not Forbes, and it's not online. I didn't even buy the copy either tho I wish I had. The figure was pretty simple for me to remember tho, as were the contractors names. I didn't say the magazine said mercenaries, I said it.

    It's not illegal because they're all just down as private defence contractors... just like Britain still sold hundreds of 'dormant bombs' after the landmine ban.

    This is not hidden information. It is not conspiracy... check the reports on KBR mishandling of contracts for a start, though, KBR are not the main defence contractors, that would go to Blackwater and Dyncorp. There are countless articles in just about every newspaper about US army complaining about a ****ed up chain of command... I'll try and find some if you want me too later.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by Becca
    Hey,Mat. Can you post a link to the Forbes article that states 1 in 10 US fighters is a merc or private army? I looked through the last 4 months papercopies of mine andcan find nothing. I find it interesting as that sort of thing is highly illegal in the US.
    There are between 20 and 25,000 privatized forces in Iraq. If we have 130,000 troops over there, it's more like 1 in 6 or 1 in 7.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

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  8. #8
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    Iam obviously biased to the Brits but it is interesting how the UK controlled areas has not seen any serious rebellion or backlash when compared to the US controlled areas. One instance I saw on TV was an Iraqi was trying to pull the gun off a UK soldier, a couple of his mates jumped on the guy pinning him to the floor instead of using their weapons to gun him down. I think you have to look at the mentality of the cultures of the US and the UK, we are not a gun culture, and guns are not in the national psyche, therefore there is a lot more respect for guns as most UK soldiers would not even seen a gun in real life let alone handled one until they joined up.

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by MasterKiller
    There are between 20 and 25,000 privatized forces in Iraq. If we have 130,000 troops over there, it's more like 1 in 6 or 1 in 7.
    Yeah, doesn't surprise me. I forgot to mention my quote comes from June 2003 I think it was.

    Internal Boxer, I know what you're saying. What I'm objecting to exactly is the placing of British soldiers directly under US command. Of course it has political implications: I'm not complaining about the tactics of the US generals who have been ignored and had the rug pulled out from under them at every turn, nor the US soldiers who've been underequipped, undertrained, overstretched and overdeployed, I'm complaining about the high command, which comes down to the admin of the current govt. It would send a very clear message from Blair if he were to refuse the redeployment of the UK army to the US areas in light of the mismanagement of the war.

    We've done a good job in our areas, our tactics have worked OK, our relationships with the local are OK, and the last thing I want is for our boys to be associated any more directly with the slash and burn tactics of the jumpy-trigger fingered US soldiers (and again - I reiterate, I'm not blaming the US soldiers... in their situation, with the lack of clear signals or strategy let alone things like leave I would be as jumpy in their shoes).

    Please write to your MP. We don't have to just leave it at, "Well Blair got into this so he can get us out"... he's shown a remarkable lack of responsibility and competance as it is.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by Mat
    Unfortunately I can't. It was Fortune, not Forbes, and it's not online. I didn't even buy the copy either tho I wish I had. The figure was pretty simple for me to remember tho, as were the contractors names. I didn't say the magazine said mercenaries, I said it.

    It's not illegal because they're all just down as private defence contractors... just like Britain still sold hundreds of 'dormant bombs' after the landmine ban.

    This is not hidden information. It is not conspiracy... check the reports on KBR mishandling of contracts for a start, though, KBR are not the main defence contractors, that would go to Blackwater and Dyncorp. There are countless articles in just about every newspaper about US army complaining about a ****ed up chain of command... I'll try and find some if you want me too later.
    I wasn't being nasty. My dad is driving me up the wall in his efforts to convice me the the war in Iraq is a just one, that we have been strait forward about it, and Bush is the only guy who can end it well. I am looking for something in hard print to show him to the contrary. It may not be out right illegal, but it is shady, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    you're kidding? i would love to drink that beer just BECAUSE it's in a dead animal...i may even pick up the next dead squirrel i see and stuff a budweiser in it

  11. #11
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    Cheers!

    Didn't think you were.

    Well busy at the mo, see what I can find... but a search on the Guardian or the NY Times or the International Herald Tribune or most papers should find something about KBR, Dyncorp, Halliburton (of course) and Blackwater.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by Liokault
    Lime light?

    Blair is taking loads of flak over this, at a time when he really dont need any more.
    As long as he can be alowed the immense privilege of talking to the world alongside Bush (For a brief moment!) and feel like a real international player on the world scene,who cares about some flack?...His glowing facial expression doesn't lie in these occasions.

    IMO, the UK did not ask for some "coalition" when they feelt like regaining the Falklands and just sent the navy.I think that previous administration would have told Bush to take care of his family's and friends commercial interest...I mean war on terror! ... by themselves as any big and powerful country should.

  13. #13
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    LOL

    As long as he can be alowed the immense privilege of talking to the world alongside Bush (For a brief moment!) and feel like a real international player on the world scene,who cares about some flack?...His glowing facial expression doesn't lie in these occasions.

    All blair is looking for from Bush is distance......and maybe a clean exit, certanly not publicity, certanly not a closer link.

    not sure if your up to speed with bush's image out side of the USofA.
    LOL.. really, what else did you hear?.. did you hear that he was voted Man of the Year by Kung-Fu Magizine?

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Becca
    I wasn't being nasty. My dad is driving me up the wall in his efforts to convice me the the war in Iraq is a just one, that we have been strait forward about it, and Bush is the only guy who can end it well. I am looking for something in hard print to show him to the contrary. It may not be out right illegal, but it is shady, IMO.
    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/04/15/warriors/
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
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  15. #15
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    Thumbs up

    Thanx!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    you're kidding? i would love to drink that beer just BECAUSE it's in a dead animal...i may even pick up the next dead squirrel i see and stuff a budweiser in it

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