The Shaolin Grandmasters Text

[richard sloan]

what I mean to say is that those monks who were teenagers pre Shi Yousan had masters who were in the temple pre 1900s...

for example Xing Zhen's master, De Bao. These men would be contemperaries of any martial exodus, especially it's flower...

just some food for thought.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, I want you to know that I haven't been posting cause I want to fight with you about all this.
I do mean it in the spirit of debate between people that are sincere in their love for the martial arts.

But, Seattle area is very well know since the early 70s for having fake Shaolin schools, there have been fake books and fake schools that have been shut down after their students sued them for fraud. So, Seattle area is a warning sign to people becuse those perpetrators of fraud are still living in that area. Just let that be known, no reflection on you (unless these guys turn out to be the same ones running your places, sorry to say).

Also, the NYC old time teachers I speak of were active leaders in the Chinatown Free Mason, are very much Cantonese and are very well known still today all over the USA. They are open to me cause they value my research, and have ordered false teachers to be shutdown, and they were fast gone. They have let me march with them in the old NYC Chinatown parades holding the red poles and the freemasons "Hong Men" flag for many years.
So, I doubt they don't know who was hiding out in NYC Chinatown of the 60s and 70s, they ran the place!

No offense, but it is easy to claim secrecy, etc., etc. but anyone can claim anything, it's all UFOs til there is open discourse and comparison of lineages and real records that show the names. If find it amazing that actual Abbotts (maybe some monks, yes) are not recorded in China and known of here by the people that would have harbored them in safety here.
I mean this with no offense to you, I am just giving you the outsider's viewpoint.

Plus, when I hear about "dangerous" skills, and stuff like that, it is easy to laugh, cause there is nothing new under the sun and nothing big deal about any dangerous skills that might have come from "secret" teachings. Dim Mak is dim mak, anything beyond that is imaginary "superhero" powers.

Until something more substantial can be shown to me, I haven't seen anything presented in that book that I haven't heard already before from some other people professing to hold "secret" info, on par with Sin The" stuff.

The proof is in the pudding, by touching hands.
When I have seen forms executed by these "Secret" holders, they are ridiculous expansive movements that anyone who has mastered Shuai Jiao, Xing Yi, Ba Qua, or a really deep knowledge of a Shaolin derived art (Mantis, Hung gar), could easily hit their wide open weak spot in seconds, because these people were never trained realistically and they could not know they were leaving weakspots that were wide open to attack.
I have touched the wide open spots when someone has shown me their secret forms and they were always surprised to have their moves penetrated so easily. I could do it in slow motion even. (not bragging, just pointing out the real danger of thinking you learned something "secret" that "no one else in the world" knows and it is in actuality ineffective against the common self defense knowledge of any lineage holder.

Again, no offense, it is possible that you might really have something esoteric and valuable, but since no one can ever know, it remains a UFO.

[Just a Guy]

Sal,

You are blending aspects of my post in strange ways.

1. Comments about secrecy are with respect to identities and relationships, not the arts.

2. The comments about not recording the most important things in books is a practice that ensures a certain kind of master-student relationship, and also allows teachers to choose what happens to their teachings. Do good martial skills have the potential to be dangerous, and to be used for ill? I would say yes. (For instance, try to find some high-quality, detailed books on Dragon or Snake or White Eyebrow. Good luck.)

3. Secret forms? Claiming to possess "secret knowledge"? You've lost me here, as claims like these are no part of what I have written. Almost everything in our tradition can be found in lay traditions, albeit typically in pieces. Our version of Bung Bo from T'ai Chi Mantis, for instance, looks surprisingly like the Bung Bo of other schools - at least as they practiced that form 50 years ago. Various flourishes have been added recently by many schools.

4. We are not in Seattle. There is a teacher living in Seattle who is part of our organization - is this what you are talking about? Also, there are quacks everywhere. On the other hand, allow me to point out that Bruce Lee began teaching in Seattle, and that today, John Leong's Hung Gar school is still going strong there.

5. We have certainly provided some 6 or 7 names in The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text for people to research, if they so wish.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Fair enough, thanks.

[The Willow Sword]

So will this book Corroborate an Individual at the Southern Fukien Temple by the name of SU KONG TAI JIN? According to The Lineage and History of none other than Shaolin-Do He was an Integral part of the Southern Temple being taught everything and passing it to Ie chang ming who was ALSO a young member of the Southern Temple just before it got destroyed When exactly?

[Jhapa]

i thought shaolin monks were vegetarians(living inside temple). according to this book they were not/or had to be vegetarian or celibate
http://www.shaolintemple.org/essay.h...0vegetarianism

"Celibacy and Vegetarianism

Celibacy and vegetarianism are minor issues in Buddhism that people like to make a big deal out of. A Buddhist is someone who follows the...............

......................................Surely, somewhere, there is also a Buddhist sect that requires vegetarianism, but not celibacy. And finally, there are some Buddhist sects that require neither, such as Tibetan Buddhism and Shaolin .............Shaolin certainly allows vegetarianism, but does not require it from students or monks..........."


to me it has temple kung fu feel to it...

[GeneChing]

I finally slogged through this piece of crap what a horrid waste of time that was. I must concur with Henning's review in JAMA. What can you expect from 'vanity' publishing?

This book sucks. It is packed with misinformation. It attempts to appear well researched by citing previous publications, but even the most cursory review of the bibliography reveals that it focuses only on recent titles and only in English. In fact, there are some obvious gaffs in here that clearly indicate that the researchers lack even the most fundamental understanding of Chinese language, much less Chinese culture. It's more of a manifesto - some one obviously put a lot of work into this solely to perpetuate their agenda within their strange belt system school. I get sent a lot of manifestos - this has to be the best presentation so far, but it still lacked content.

There's two kickers to this - two outstanding things the just sent sent it over the top. One is that it comes with this little apology blow-in card. What kind of book does that? It's out of fear. Second, and this is why I call them 'cowards,' is that they refuse to identify themselves. They give all sorts of excuses for anonymity, but it's it's really ridiculous when you think about it. After all, this is the martial arts. If you can't lay your name and reputation down on the line with something that you publish, you have no right to stand amongst other martial artists that do.

I feel bad for any newbies who begin their Shaolin journey with this book. They will be so deluded. I can only hope that they can find the truth, in the end.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I told you so.

PLEASE Gene, repeat your review at Amazon.com so
that newbie didn't get ripped off.

[norther practitioner]

Geez Gene, why don't you tell us how you really feal.

Thanks, I was thinking about picking this one up to see what it was about.. but I won't bother now.

[oasis]

Gene, I read Henning's review too. I thought it was kind of funny how he said nearly what you said, that he tried to be openminded to sit through the book but just couldn't take it! i don't think i've read a review that pitiful before. it's too bad the book tries to be so secretive in such an information age. then again, they must be hoping to cater to those without background knowledge.

Stanley Henning also referenced Tang Hao's "Shaolin-Wudang Research." Is this available in the states?

[Brad]

Thanks for the honest review! If I had more money I might have forked out some $$ to see what this thing was all about, but luckily I'm too poor to spend money on books by mystery authors

[DragonflyDaoist]

I've seen it mentioned in a couple of places (both print and Web, I think), but I can't recall locale or other specific information. For some reason, I want to say that it was developed outside the temples in central or southern China, but place no confidence in that statement.

[GeneChing]

Glad I saved y'all some money.

I have the utmost respect for Stanley Henning's research. I wish more academicians would follow his example - it's quite courageuos since martial arts research is somewhat frowned upon amongst scholarly circles. He really is a leader in the field. Anyway, as for Tang Hao - I can't think of an English translation available, off hand. But thanks to the net, you can get pretty much anything. Can you access Chinese Google? It's quite powerful and I'm sure you'd turn up a Chinese version there.

Sal, I appreciate your comment about Amazon and am considering a review, but why haven't you posted there already?

[Fen]

I don't know what it is about the Northwest drawing all the freaks, but we sure do seem to be getting MORE then our share.. Anyone want to come up here and take some back to your own areas?? Lets spread them out a bit so it doesn't make ALL of us Northwesterners look REALLY bad (not that it's not that bad already).

Thanks,
~Jason

As I said before, the Northwest is drawing all the freaks!

~Jason

[Mo Lung]

So, Gene - what would you consider to be a really good volume on the history, etc. of Shaolin?