Fights go to the ground

[Gangsterfist]

Okay, I will share something that will perhaps show some perspective on some things that involve real fighting.

My background is karate originally 3yrs. I now train wing chun and taiji. I pretty much just train CMA now. A while back ago (about a year or maybe even more) I was getting really into my wing chun and wanted to test it out. I knew a guy who did BJJ and had several years of it. He was naturally a real aggressive guy too. I sparred him, and the first time we fought I got my A$$ kicked. I didn't know how to handle ground stuff and since we were friends I did not use any hard knees and elbows and throat grabs etc. Which in turn limited me and I got owned pretty much.

Here is the thing about fighting. There is ring fighting with rules and regulations and weight classes etc etc. There is real fighting that has no rules. I was not about to toss an elbow to my friends head, that has too high risk or a bad injury on him. Many times when he would shoot me (its a take down move he kept referring to) I had some opportunities to attack him as he came in. Whether or not these attacks would be very effective I am not totally sure of because I did not try them, but I have confidence that ina real situation it would hurt someone badly.

After fighting him a while I started to be able to adapt and it was harder for him to take me down. On my feet I was way quicker than him and my hand techniques were superior to his (thats what I train).

In the end I kinda came to the conclusion that there is no long range fighting (kicking) there is no trapping range, there is no clench, there is no grappling, there is no ground fighting, there is only fighting.

Its all fighting no matter what range or position you are in. So I just train to fight now in all situations. I apply what I know when its necessary and what I don't know I learn from experience from sparring others.

However, you must also realize in sparring I dont do any neck chops, elbows to the head, finger jabs, or grab flesh. In a real fight I would have no problem doing this if I needed to.

The key is to just train and build attributes and do not be scared to face it. Have confidence in your style and technique and do not be affraid to get hit you can't always control the situation and you can't always block what comes in at you. Don't be affraid of grapplers they are not invincible and they feel pain. Unless they are uber tough, but then again those guys are hard to beat reguardless of how they fight. I may not be the best ground fighter out there (I mean fighter) but I can definately handle myself a lot better.

In a real fight situation IMHO, ground fighting is kind of pointless. I have not seen a one on one fight since grade school, its always been mutliple people vs multiple people and in those situations I would rather be on my feet.

[Samurai Jack]

The following website has the most compelling argument I've ever seen explaining why street fights so often end up on the ground. Serious stuff, check it out:

http://www.matbattle.com/

[Merryprankster]

I have confidence that ina real situation it would hurt someone badly.

Worst kind of confidence to have.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Worst kind of confidence to have.

I am pretty sure a full force elbow would hurt just about anybody, but I don't see it as a guaranteed knock out or anything. I have met a few people who can take stuff like though, so I see your point.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
since we were friends I did not use any hard knees and elbows and throat grabs etc. Which in turn limited me and I got owned pretty much. I was not about to toss an elbow to my friends head, that has too high risk or a bad injury on him. Whether or not these attacks would be very effective I am not totally sure
in sparring I dont do any neck chops, elbows to the head, finger jabs, or grab flesh.

In other words you will very likely get your ass kicked unless you employ 'techniques' that you have no idea that could actually pull off when you need to. That sounds great. No wonder you are so confident.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by unkokusai
In other words you will very likely get your ass kicked unless you employ 'techniques' that you have no idea that could actually pull off when you need to. That sounds great. No wonder you are so confident.

True, I have hardly ever used some things I train in sparring because of the risk level. A few times people have gotten hurt (including myself, took and elbow to the chin once and sent me on the ground real quick). OTOH, some of them I have used in a real fight and they seemed to work okay. For the most part a good elbow will stop the guy coming at you. It may not be a knock out, but it probably will effect them. If it doesn't then you probably won't win the fight anyways. Some people are just tougher than you. If it seemed I was over confident, let me correct myself. I am confident techniques like that will work if trained properly and executed properly when needed. That is of course if you can pull it off.

I am just basing things off experience. There is no need to start an argument over it. If you think otherwise please share your experiences and your training.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


I am just basing things off experience. There is no need to start an argument over it. .

Well, if you're gonna be all reasonable 'n ****, just forget it!

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
The following website has the most compelling argument I've ever seen explaining why street fights so often end up on the ground. Serious stuff, check it out:

http://www.matbattle.com/

*Sadly shakes head, feeling degraded for every time a fight has gone to the ground*

[Dark Knight]

A friend of mine competed in kick boxing for years, so he has good solid striking skills. When he first looked at BJJ a couple years ago he went to a seminar with someone who making the rounds with his students. They were easy friendly people so he felt OK working with them.

They did a bunch of techniques and then had the people in the seminar try different attacks. He was allowed to strike. he figured he could hook somone before they took him down. He said it didnt work well at all. He tried knees and elbows with the students and had the same results.


When a person shoots to take you down he uses timing, if it was easy to elbow or knee someone to stop it you would see it at UFC and the other NHB events.

As far as fighting in the streets, you prob will not run across a trained fighter in the streets. They usually dont start fights. If you train hard and realistically you will have an advantage over the average schmuck out there.

Train hard, train long and train realistically
DK

[Meat Shake]

"if it was easy to elbow or knee someone to stop it you would see it at UFC and the other NHB events."

Im not one to say anything about "deadly techniques", but an elbow to the back of the head is easy, high percentage KO, but its not allowed in the UFC or NHB because a hard strike to the base of the skull can cause blindness.

[Dark Knight]

UFC does not allow it, but the other NHB organizations do.

Also in the early UFC's this was allowed, groin shots were allowed....

Different states would not allow them because of the injury possibilities (Even though nowe had died, but in boxing people have) Thats also why you see gloves in UFC but not in other NHB events.

An elbow on a trained fighter shooting in is not as easy as it sounds.

In the street you will prob fight people who are not trained fighters and you can control the fight.

Back in the 70's when I first started in the Martial Arts peole said boxing was self defense. The reason is that most times you never fought against someone who had any training. As a trained boxer, even a poor one, you had an advantage over the majority of people. The same holds true today. People who train usually dont start fights. As aq trained martial artist you should have skills to control someone from taking you down, or make it difficult for them.

[LEGEND]

"Im not one to say anything about "deadly techniques", but an elbow to the back of the head is easy, high percentage KO, but its not allowed in the UFC or NHB because a hard strike to the base of the skull can cause blindness."

Uhhhhhhhhhh earlier UFCs 1 through 10 allowed elbows to the head...Brazil and Russian NHB still allows it. U are incorrect.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
... but an elbow to the back of the head is easy, high percentage KO, but its not allowed in the UFC or NHB because a hard strike to the base of the skull can cause blindness.

It is extremely difficult to knock someone out with elbows to the back of the head. And it sure doesn't cause blindness.

[WinterPalm]

I would speak to your Sifu about ground fighting. I train in Kung Fu and although we do not have a heavy focus on ground fighting, the style still includes ground fighting but for the purpose of escape. We'll train most specifically on avoiding and countering an attack such as a shoot, a tackle, waist height, thigh and below, and even a chest attack like a bear hug. And because Sifu says that he cannot guarantee anything will work, for always a miscalculation can occur, or the any given sunday affect, so we deal with being taken down and how to maximize your ability to get out of the situation. On top of that there are all the fundamentals of joint lock, body mechanics, and leverage that can be applied. Because Kung Fu is a stand up style, predominantly I suppose some just don't teach ground fighting, the focus is on standing and using the techniques from there. Once you get good though, I imagine a carryover in skill and spirit can help you in any given situation.
I think maybe people put too much emphasis on how to deal with this, then that, then this in so and so a way, and it is good but don't expect every conceivable angle and attack to be covered, you should be taught that a technique is a technique not in perfect delivery, but in actual delivery.

[David Jamieson]

Has anyone here been in or witnessed a real street fight that didnt go to the ground?

yes. ....well, one guy usually ends up on the ground. :P

heres my experience-

most kungfu styles train to counter a takedown but do nothing for working in the guard. From the mount is different, just keep wailing til he's not moving will most often work for you. If the guy can get out, then start again.

I recently got to do some metered ground training with some fellow enthusiasts.

Basically, no striking, start with both people kneeling and go for the mount, the guard or pass the guard.

Relaxing when you're in the guard is a big deal. Let the guy in the mount do the work and get tired, but if he's hitting you, that's different, you probably need to get some control on his arms at the joints to take his power.

For the most part, I am fairly inexperienced with a lot of it and frankly, I don't mind getting tooled by someone with the skeelz because every tech I fail at is a lesson learned.

For take downs and countering takedowns, I'm ok, but once you're there, you're there and you should have at least a couple of tools to use to change the scenario as opposed to getting a hot karl for nothing

I'm gonna keep working at it. I'm gonna keep working at all the other stuff too, but all ranges are important and the split on go to the ground is about 60/40 in reality but there are a lot of promoters of self out there who would have you believe that the ground is inevitable, it is not.