Shaolin-Do would choke Royce out

[Gangsterfist]

One thing that always makes me skeptical about schools teaching animals forms is I think they are not properly doing it.

I know people who used to train, and still train the 7 animals of shaolin. They train hard, and I mean hard with iron body training, qigong, hard physical work outs and conditioning to build those needed attributes to properly execute the animal forms of kung fu. Then on top of that you have to abandon all human emotion and all human thought and become the animal.

Tigers never push their prey away, they are constantly clawing them and pulling them in with strong effective techniques.

Monkeys are play but dangerous and once they hurt you they go back to being playful again.

Mantis is emotionless, still and attacks when it needs to destorying what ever comes in first and climbing its way up its opponet.

Leopards are fast and kill their prey fast and effectively usually bitting and clawing the neck. They climb up trees and haul their prey up with them, so larger predators cannot take their game away. Which does happen, in Africa lions have been known to steal leopards prey from them.

Snakes strike with percision at vital areas of the body and inject their venom into their target. Snakes are also arrogant and know how deadly they are. Almost all other wildlife can feel their intentions and will not cross them. Elephants in Africa will not cross spitting cobras because they can feel the offensive intentions of the cobra. The black mamba is feared amongst all wildlife in africa and is also heavily feared by humans.

I could go on and on about animal behaviors, but I don't want to turn this into some short nature channel novel I don't formally train animal boxing but a few of my brothers do, and I happen to know a southern dragon form and practice its techniques in class. I have seen demos put on by schools that claim to teach the animals of shaolin and I see lots of lack of intent in their forms and lots of physical attributes lacking as well. They have no "jing" in their movements and they look to be weak and ineffective. Now, when I watch someone who really knows animal boxing their forms have power and intent of that animal and I know it would hurt if I got hit with that type of technique or strike. I can see and feel it is effective when the right practitioner executes their form.

Just my thoughts...

[wdl]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Hey Will,

good to see you posting here, but there's no way you'll catch my post count on this site(I have too much of a headstart).

Hey JP,

Yeah, your post count is definately out of reach here. It's safe to say I'll never be able to catch it. Almost typed my fingers raw catching you the last time.

If you'll be in Morristown Friday night I'll have Rob bring your pads. I didn't realize you had left them in Rogersville. Or were you hinting you'd be needing them for Rob's test.

Were those the mantis practitioners in Nashville you mentioned awhile back?

-Will

[Judge Pen]

I can't make it this Friday, but I'll be there for Rob's test in two weeks.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
One thing that always makes me skeptical about schools teaching animals forms is I think they are not properly doing it.

I know people who used to train, and still train the 7 animals of shaolin. They train hard, and I mean hard with iron body training, qigong, hard physical work outs and conditioning to build those needed attributes to properly execute the animal forms of kung fu. Then on top of that you have to abandon all human emotion and all human thought and become the animal.

Tigers never push their prey away, they are constantly clawing them and pulling them in with strong effective techniques.

Monkeys are play but dangerous and once they hurt you they go back to being playful again.

Mantis is emotionless, still and attacks when it needs to destorying what ever comes in first and climbing its way up its opponet.

Leopards are fast and kill their prey fast and effectively usually bitting and clawing the neck. They climb up trees and haul their prey up with them, so larger predators cannot take their game away. Which does happen, in Africa lions have been known to steal leopards prey from them.

Snakes strike with percision at vital areas of the body and inject their venom into their target. Snakes are also arrogant and know how deadly they are. Almost all other wildlife can feel their intentions and will not cross them. Elephants in Africa will not cross spitting cobras because they can feel the offensive intentions of the cobra. The black mamba is feared amongst all wildlife in africa and is also heavily feared by humans.

I could go on and on about animal behaviors, but I don't want to turn this into some short nature channel novel I don't formally train animal boxing but a few of my brothers do, and I happen to know a southern dragon form and practice its techniques in class. I have seen demos put on by schools that claim to teach the animals of shaolin and I see lots of lack of intent in their forms and lots of physical attributes lacking as well. They have no "jing" in their movements and they look to be weak and ineffective. Now, when I watch someone who really knows animal boxing their forms have power and intent of that animal and I know it would hurt if I got hit with that type of technique or strike. I can see and feel it is effective when the right practitioner executes their form.

Just my thoughts...

That's just silly....

Do you really think that someone would hinge their survival on imitating an animal having no idea if it would work or not?

The martial arts developed as a means of survival and defense not as some kind of interpretive nature dance.

The form/shape/technique came first and then they attributed it to certain animals, elements, theories or other pervasive cultural elements. Not the other way around.

For example, Taiji was never called Taiji until fairly recently in its development. Then someone noticed that it embodied certain elements of Taosim and started calling it Taiji Chuan.

[Gangsterfist]

Why do you think they call tiger boxing, tiger boxing, and crane boxing, crane boxing? It is because you are imitating that animal.

In the most recent IKF Tai Chi Magazine, its dedicated to shaolin completely. The whole issue is just about shaolin. In there, there was an article about a monk who moved to new york and was interviewed about his training and his american students. He goes into some detail about the animal forms, and how you have to abandon human thought and emotion and become the animal you are imitating. He said his students are just now able to start learning animal forms because they have about 3 years of training now. Which means that learning animal boxing in shaolin comes later after first building certain skill sets and attributes.

In the article he is doing some sort of mantis postures. Of course these imitations are adapted to the human body but the basic mechanics are there. When I get home from work I will pick up the magazine and give you more examples of what I am talking about.

[Gangsterfist]

Actually,

Its KungFuMagazine Tai chi, July/August issue 2004. The issue is called Shaolin Kung Fu and has a monk on the cover doing some posture I am not familiar with.

If you turn to page 57 and read an interview with warrior shaolin warrior monk, Lipeng Zhang, you will understand a bit more of what I am saying.

Here is an excerpt from the interview:

...To really do animal forms correctly, you need to understand the yin and yang aspects you mentioned. In other words you are (obviously) a human being. But you have to become the animal of the form. Anyone can bend their two fingers like a mantis and say they are doing mantis but how about the legs and eyes? Those two fingers are also lethal weapons when used correctly. You have to force yourself to go low in Mantis, just like you have to make your stomach and heart papitate differently when you do tiger or leopard. It's not just changing the position of your fingers...

This is just one example I am sure I could find a lot more if you want more info on it.

[Fu-Pow]

Those guys aren't monks, they're wushu athletes dressed up like monks.

I'm talking about the origin of the techniques themselves.

The techniques predate the names.

There is something like what you are talking about...it's called Saat Hei or Sha Chi....the "killing aura" or "aura of destruction."

It's not "animal specific" though. It should be in all of the forms.

[Brad]

In the article he is doing some sort of mantis postures. Of course these imitations are adapted to the human body but the basic mechanics are there. When I get home from work I will pick up the magazine and give you more examples of what I am talking about.

That's a modern form created for performance and competition. Yes, there's some application because it was created by a traditional mantis master, but practicality takes a back seat to performance. All the Shaolin Temple animal forms I've seen are modern competition/performance forms.

[Gangsterfist]

I have seen my old sifu and a few of my kung fu brothers do the lost track mantis form. It is not as exaggerated as some of the stances in the article, but its still similiar. Also those low stances are good training, they are not for combat.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Also those low stances are good training, they are not for combat.

Generally I agree; however, some applications, such as a takedown or chin na lock will require a swift sinking of the weight and will put you in a lower stance than you would be while striking.

[Gangsterfist]

JP-

Agreed, but a lot of time you are just dropping your weight, its faster than trying to crouch.

[Judge Pen]

I was thinking about stepping back into a low bow and arrow stance while pulling the wrist and elbow, for example.

[red5angel]

but put him against a good grappler and I think he'd get owned.

Where do I get a petition started stating that people can't make comments like this on the forum anymore? Seriously, what sort of comment is that - put anyone up against anyone good enough and they'll get owned. Put me up against someone faster, stronger and better trained then me and I'll get owned. No, really, it's true.