Shaolin-Do would choke Royce out

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by PHILBERT


Next we did a kick that I've never seen before. It is similar to a cresent kick, but it only goes up to about the waste. It is designed for groin shots, but it comes somewhat at an angle. Being I've never done this kick before, I totally sucked at it. The instructor however had some power to it. He said one of his brown belts was really good with this kick. The kick would be deployed if your opponent were standing somewhat at an angle, and was not a front snap kick.

Sounds like an invert kick. I'm not a big fan, but I've seen some that can use this kick effectively to close and set up a stronger technique.

Originally posted by PHILBERT



Then he showed me some techniques, open sparring. The first consisted of a jab, but was done upside down, so the back of my fist faced the ground. I struck with the first 2 knuckles. I would then come back into a cat stance as if to retreat, throw 2 punches at the same time plus a kick. Then I would do a side kick THEN a straight kick without putting my foot down, close in with the upside down jab. Finally I did a sweeping motion to a leg, followed by a side kick. I did this for a few minutes while they did Baguazhang.

These are sparring techniques 1-4. Some of the very first techniques that are taught to an SD newbie.

Originally posted by PHILBERT


Last thing he showed me was something from a form. VERY Karate looking, but instead of block/punch, you blocked and punched at the same time. Supposedly this "blows peoples minds away" because people aren't use to doing both at the same time. Coming from a Wing Tsun background, I knew what I was doing. I started in a bow stance with my right leg out and left fist. I then brought the left fist back into an overhead block while punching with the right fist. Then I stood back into some other stance, and put my arms in front of my chest as if to block a round kick. Some more weird stuff, but I kept going forward on this. It reminded me of Karate, but I was leaning forward. He said that a Karate master originally taught he students how to block then punch at the same time, because they couldn't get both to work at once. He then died before he taught them both, and no one bothered putting it back together.

He was showing you short form number 1, but I've never heard his story explaniation before. It's a nice and fundamental concept blocking and striking at the same time and one of the overriding principles of SD, but not a "mind blowing" principle in my opinion. Just sound fundamentals.

Originally posted by PHILBERT


Now, for the Baguazhang. I watched the 3 of them do Baguazhang. The 2 brown belts looked like they were watching a home study course on Baguazhang, lacked rooting, and I don't even study Baguazhang but I could see it was poor. The instructor seemed to have a much better grasp, but even then he came off as maybe a 1-2 year student of Baguazhang would have. How much application he had was beyond me. But the movement itself was very smooth and solid, and very well rooted. I am sure a Baguazhang practioner would notice more errors in it, but being as I don't study it, I couldn't judge him very thoroughly. His students however I could see some major errors in. It honestly looked like they had just watched a Baguazhang tape, and were trying to follow the movements.

I've only known BaGua for 1 to 2 years so your observations of the instructor seemed accurate. The ones in SD that seem to really get it are the ones that have focused on it for several years. One of our highest ups focused on nothing but the basic BaGua form for a couple of years. The danger of a style with so many forms is that you don't focus enough on any single set of fundamentals or principles. You can, but most people don't.

Originally posted by PHILBERT
Over all the school was definately BETTER than I expected.

Would I join this school? Probably not. I would want an instructor who picks away at the things, instead of giving me my belt. These guys looked like they were just handed a belt each time they tested and weren't really taught that the stuff they were doing was inccorect.

This can be a problem, but its a school problem that can occur regardless of style. I don't know what school you visited, or if its a problem at this school, but it is a concern.

Originally posted by PHILBERT

I know some people here say it is Karate or Kempo, maybe it is. I don't do Karate or Kempo, but it didn't resemble any Karate I've seen. Some of it probably can work on the street, only if you have the instructor who will show you when you mess up. This guy didn't seem to be doing that.

Over all I rate the system higher than what I originally expected. I certainly can't judge the system off of one school, just like I can't judge Wing Chun off the God awful Wing Chun school I visited last year. But this school could be better if the teacher would correct his students more often.

I think this is a very fair assesment. Thanks Philbert.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
We call those the I Ching Ching.
The early ones are like isometric exercises. There are some I've never seen anyone capable of doing, but I've heard JP say that his teacher and his teacher's brother are able to do the ones I thought were just an unattainable goal. I figured they were some kind of test of will/spirit with the side benefit of building your strength/flexibility/balance until I heard they could do them...

They are impossible for me, but I've seen Master Kevin Mullins, Master Garry Mullins' youngest son do the impossible postures, but not with 49 breaths. I don't think anyone can do that unelss that's all you worked on. I've been told that if you do all 49 excercises with 49 breaths then it should take all day.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
Radhnoti, yeah, thats what he called it. I forgot what he said. The stuff I did was pretty simple, but there were 45 others I didn't see. The only one I couldn't do is because of my back. Other than the knife stuff I witnessed Monday, I didn't get to see any sparring. Wish I could of though.

Iron Fist, he said that students usually do them every morning 7 days a week, 7 per day. After all, 8 hours is nothing to a monk who has nothing else to do.

Edit:
One critical thing I forgot to mention in either of my posts was the uniform. Neither the instructor OR the student wore a full gi type uniform, or went barefoot. The instructor was wearing all black, black gi pants, and the black belt with a black t-shirt that had a Shaolin-Do logo and on the back read Year of the Monkey. The students wore white pants, white shirts and the standard Judo/Karate/JJ/BJJ belts that you see. We trained in shoes as well, not slippers.

I have a really *strong* feeling that this instructor specializes in monkey stuff more. Like I commented earlier, they did 2 Monkey forms and 1 drunken form, and tonight he talked alot about drunken after class (as well as crane and stuff). Don't some schools have instructors who usually stick to one animal? Hence why some schools have like 4 or 5 teachers, that way a student has different animals to choose from once he/she had decided.

Different teachers focus on differnt things. Mike is a Tiger and Hsing-Ie guy. His brother Kevin likes Crane and Dragon. Their dad loves Hua.

And the uniforms don't really matter. As for the "next generation" changing things back to Chinese terms, that is occuring gradually and it's a point of debate in the SD politico.

Bah, why did this have to be posted this week? Gotta run, but I'll post more later.

[BentMonk]

Philbert - First off, thank you for taking the time to check out a SD school, and giving a first class, balanced review. I am fortunate enough to study at a SD school where the instructors pay close attention to the details. The ability to understand and apply what you learn is our basis for rank advancement, not how well you repeat the movement. We condition hard. Our instructors will not even consider allowing someone to test if their current ability is lacking. JP attends a SD school with very similar attitudes. Unfortunately many people who study MA are impatient. They want to tell all their friends that they are such and such belt/sash color, and know this and that form, and they want to tell them now. When faced with the reality that real MA study is a life long thing, they get impatient and whiny. The problems arise when these attitudes are catered to, often times out of a need to keep the kwoon door open. This is IMO the root source of every mediocre BB and Master in every MA style practiced today. Who cares how much knowledge you have if you cannot apply it?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BentMonk
JP attends a SD school with very similar attitudes.

I do, but I'm sure you can find students in my school that are weak in some fundamental areas. Heck if you looked hard enough, I'm weak in some fundamental areas. Alls I'm saying is I'm still working on the details and we are still hammering in the fundamentals to our students. These deficiencies should be the exception and not the rule at any good MA school.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
this has gone on long enuff

shaolin-do is a bad fcuking joke. what a bunch of losers.

Well good for you and your view. However, this thread was created to fulfill a promise I made to Judge Pen and some other SD guys to eventually go check out the school. This thread is my review of that school.

Ikken Hisatsu, I only met 3 people, plus the instructor. The instructor was in excellent shape, very muscular, well built guy. Not overweight/fat/out of shape at all. The brown belt who was testing soon was also in good shape from physical appearance. The other brown belt was an older gentleman, in his late 30s to early 40s probably, and while still in good shape for his age, had a little more of a belly (a little being key word here). The girl of course, as mentioned, was in great shape. So all in all, physically looking they looked fine. Some schools do not allow open sparring right off the bat. Plus, being a "white belt" so to speak, they brown belts would spar at my level. When 2 people spar, they must spar at the lower belts level, so no throws would be used.

Judge Pen, yeah, one of the forms was called green dragon, the second form they did. Both forms were using the Chinese Broadsword, not a straight sword.

Ok let me post this cause its thundering outside and I dont need the power to go off and to erase everything. I'll start typing more in a moment.

[PHILBERT]

Alright, the power didn't go out.

The school I went to use to be the Arlington school, but its now in Grand Prairie. The instructor I met was named Craig Sadler, a 2nd degree black belt. http://www.ntshaolin.com/ I can't visit the site, it seems to be down. There was another instructor, but he wasn't there this week because he is a coach, and they had a track thing or something.

[YinYangDagger]

As an Ex-Shaolin do student, I will admit some of the fighting techniques are quite useful. Don't care much for the history, but I agree with Philbert that IF an instructor/sensei/shifu would teach someone to use the techniques correctly they may work.

Me personally I still practice the Tiger form I learned there, I really enjoy it, and if you have prior experience you can pull some pretty bad a$$ moves from the form. Plus it's a darn good conditioning tool if you do the stances correct and low like you're supposed to. If you hang around long enough Philbert you would learn the Tiger form at Yellow belt.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[PHILBERT]

YinYangDagger, no thanks, I do Wing Chun on Monday/Wednesday and don't feel like dropping $60 to learn the form. Besides, odds are I can go buy a Hung Gar tape or something that has a Tiger form on it. Or just download something.

[Judge Pen]

We talked about this in PM, YYD, but I think there are some very good applicaitons out of the SD forms, and Lord knows if you practice them all the way they are supposed to be done you will be in great shape, but most students get caught up in just learning a new form without really focusing on the ones they have.

Philbert, thanks for checking out a school and being fair and honest with your report.

[YinYangDagger]

That's cool Philbert, I was under the impression you were going to stay to get a chance with the jailbait girl

Nothing wrong with WC, keep it up.

[JMantisSmurf]

hey philbert,

im a seven star student in dallas
was wondering what your style is and where your school is located. same with this sd place

there is another one is austin that the boards were talking about earlier.

my sifu say he thinks he knows those guys

so any SD guys in austin write me back and ask your sifu if he knows/knew a seven star sifu named Jeff Hughs

JMS

[PHILBERT]

This school is located in Grand Prairie. I myself study under Sifu Steve Cottrell in Fort Worth, alongside both BeiTangLang (though he is in the Mantis class) and Sandman2[Wing Chun], both moderators on this site.

[wdl]

I pretty much just wanted to say thank you for going and giving a no BS, honest evaluation. Seriously, those are hard to come by. Generally I try to stay out of the SD debates online, but I'm getting sucked into them more and more.


I've seen students from Texas fight and compete several times at tourney's in Kentucky and our's here in Tennessee. I fought one from Texas last year in Kentucky and two from D.C. that are under an instructor from Texas. The two from D.C. were good fighters, the other one wasn't. Some of them fight and compete well, some of them don't, pretty much like any other school. What you saw out of the brown belts is typical of some SD schools, particularly in Texas. Some students seem to shortcut technique for speed. Even the lower rank forms(white-green) are done at what seems to me to be a break neck pace by some. Although I can't say too much, I'm just 3rd brown, I work on technique constantly. From what I've seen, I don't think the power and technique issues get straighted out there until about 2nd black. Maybe it's because Hsing-I is taught as rank advancement at 2nd so they get in the habit of rooting before an attack and it helps their technique all the way around.

The invert kick as JP was mentioning can be nasty once speed and power gets developed with it. Groin shots are legal so depending on the fighter you see it thrown alot sometimes. Very effective in the lower rank point sparring because of it's quickness and short travel distance. Much more effective in non-stop to setup combos to lead powerful technique. Extremely effective on the street when the j@ck@ss that's harassing you doesn't have "The Duke" from Wal-Mart or one of those groin daipers(Saw a guy from Texas wear one of those diapers over his Gi pants in Kentucky last fall, I almost died laughing). Some folks here have enough on it to dent a nut cup completely in. I've seen a few break. Pretty much the only time you see them thrown that hard is as a warning shot to lighten up contact after a verbal request doesn't work.

YYD, I'd have to look around.. but swear I think I can find a post wear you said something to the effect of "SD is useless" or maybe it was "SD is useless to me" and now your talking about pulling "bad @$$" moves out of the most basic tiger form we have? Cool! I'm glad to see you don't deny the strength, endurance and technique building that can be had out of our forms when they are done right.

Again, thanks for giving your thoughts straight up and level. I hope more people do what you have done. Honestly, even if they have a totally bad experience, I think it should serve to help SD.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

Hey Will,

good to see you posting here, but there's no way you'll catch my post count on this site(I have too much of a headstart).

Keep training hard and make sure Rob brings my sparring pads to the next test in Morristown!

Oh, I worked out with some Meihua mantis peeps this weekend (great folks btw) and they work the invert kick as well. They called it an "opening door" kick and used it against the leg and groin. Some post here too; had a great time guys!