Is Wing Chun Internal?

[SimonM]

I have no problem with guys going down the internal path if thats what they want to do.
Just dont tell the folks that bust their butts, spar, get injured and just plain put in year after year that they are "missing something"

Bingo! Give this man a prize!

I personally, after practising a lot of martial arts, and reading a lot of books on the history of martial arts, the philosophical and religious traditions out of which they developed and the historical concept within which they developed began to doubt that "internal" was anything more than a modern appellation to three disparate arts.

Xingyiquan is a very practical spear art adapted to bare hands. The thrust-and-twist power generation that constantly comes up in Xingyi isn't a reference back to a byzantine Taoist yin/yang metaphysical dichotomy, it is how any sensible person stabs with a spear.

Plain And Simple.

Taijiquan, on the other hand, is pretty much indivisible from the Taoist metaphysical aspects built up around it. In fact, so much attention has been given to the metaphysics that it is entirely divorced from any sort of martial root, having become a good, low impact, method of keeping fit while practising meditation-in-movement.

Bagua is about half-way between these two extremes, it includes Taoist metaphysics but retains a fair bit of the original wrestling and locking content that it was intended for.

Circle walking isn't the wisest course of action on a battlefield (in fact it'll get you dead fast) but in a duel being to change angles rapidly could have been of use, suggesting that Bagua may have evolved out of gentlemanly duelling arts as well as a grapple / lock basis.

Considering the significance of standing locks and arm control to sword and knife practices this actually makes a certain amount of sense and, when perceived through this filter, provides a rational basis for how we might have ended up with something anomalous such as Bagua.

Please don't think I'm ignorant of the creation myths for each of these arts. I know them in detail. I just don't think them to be that relevant to discussing the actual evolution of the "internal" school.

So what do we have as "internal?"

1) A battlefield art - xingyi
2) A duellist art - bagua
3) A meditative / fitness / cultivation art - Taiji

Where do our references to "internal" arts mostly derive?

Why from the writings of a general on a well-rounded syllabus!

What social status did generals occupy in dynastic China?

Why I do believe they were gentlemen!

Who were expected to know how to duel? Gentlemen!

Who would be expected to practice personal cultivation? Gentlemen again!

Wow, surprising how that all fits together.

But these three disparate arts all sort of got blended a little, mostly in the last 150 years. A lot of the Taiji metaphysics rubbing off onto Xingyi and Bagua practice.

Fast-forward a hundred years more ant that "internal" metaphysics has started to rub off onto completely disparate arts like Wing Chun. It's not internal, there isn't anything internal about it. As with Xingyi, and to a lesser extent, Bagua, the apparent anomalies in how power is generated are actually things with rational explanations - the principle of the shortest path for instance.

However part of why Taoism has survived for 2500 years is because it is changeable. Successful religions and philosophies are. So, being changeable, it is easily adapted.

Somebody adapts Taoist metaphysics, drawn out of Taiji, to the power generation of a martial art and slaps the label "internal" on it.

What frustrates me is that by creating "internal" you create an opposite "external" which is defined as everything that is-not-internal.

My reading of the dedaojing is such that this is not the true Tao.

Only in the dissolution of opposites into unity will you find the Tao-That-Cannot-Be-Named.

Therefore the orthodox Taoist interpretation would be that there is no internal.

Of course, I am a crafter of beautiful lies that speak to truth. It is my stock in trade both to dissolve opposites and also to mislead in a way. So perhaps I am doing that right now.

[YiQuanOne]

Prove me wrong fu boy.

As your friend in fantasy would say.... show me the money

It's follow the money. Bozo

Learn how to read, do you need a comprehension lesson. Did you get hit in the head to many times practicing your external MA's?.

Don't try to quote someone if you don't know how to read!

[WC1277]

This has got to be the most boring and incredibly non-productive thread on this entire forum. Can you guys please just stop now. No one is coming up with anything new or interesting that hasn't been said before. On a side note, no one really cares either, it's always the same 3 or 4 posters running in circles!

[Hendrik]

Fast-forward a hundred years more ant that "internal" metaphysics has started to rub off onto completely disparate arts like Wing Chun.


It's not internal, there isn't anything internal about it.

Do you home work before posting will be great for you.

Even Chin Yoong needed to do lots and lots of details home work before he wrote his fiction.

I hope you could become a Chin Yoong of the West.

[Eric_H]

Bagua is about half-way between these two extremes, it includes Taoist metaphysics but retains a fair bit of the original wrestling and locking content that it was intended for.

Circle walking isn't the wisest course of action on a battlefield (in fact it'll get you dead fast) but in a duel being to change angles rapidly could have been of use, suggesting that Bagua may have evolved out of gentlemanly duelling arts as well as a grapple / lock basis.

Circle walking isn't for combat. If you really think Bagua guys just run around their opponent until they get dizzy you might have missed a few things here and there.

Can't find the link cause I'm at work, but check out the saber form Grandmaster Fu Zhen Song taught when a commander in the army (you can find it on youtube.)

Also, from what I've seen of it, much of the four sided spear lends itself well to group tactics.

[YouKnowWho]

Circle walking isn't for combat.

If you can circle walk faster than the speed of light, you can make your opponent to change into a new born baby. Instead of fighting your opponent, you just carry him to the near by daycare center.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCsHTNP2MaU

[EternalSpring]

Taijiquan, on the other hand, is pretty much indivisible from the Taoist metaphysical aspects built up around it. In fact, so much attention has been given to the metaphysics that it is entirely divorced from any sort of martial root, having become a good, low impact, method of keeping fit while practising meditation-in-movement.

I'm not so sure about that. Sure, that may be how "McDojo Tai Chi" or Tai Chi trained only for health purposes may appear, but this is not at all true for those who correctly train it as a martial art.

Taijiquan, on the other hand, is pretty much indivisible from the Taoist metaphysical aspects built up around it. In fact, so much attention has been given to the metaphysics that it is entirely divorced from any sort of martial root, having become a good, low impact, method of keeping fit while practising meditation-in-movement.

Fast-forward a hundred years more ant that "internal" metaphysics has started to rub off onto completely disparate arts like Wing Chun. It's not internal, there isn't anything internal about it. As with Xingyi, and to a lesser extent, Bagua, the apparent anomalies in how power is generated are actually things with rational explanations - the principle of the shortest path for instance.
)

But, at least as far as Ip Man lineages go, the Siu Nim Tao is internal and not very different from what you said about the "meditation in movement" seen in Tai Chi. It is the base of all the movements that are learned in Ving Tsun. The idea that Ving Tsun has internal aspects is not something new from the modern day Ving Tsun practitioners, this idea has been passed down in the Kuen Kit for generations. In fact, I'm sure even various kuen kit from different lineages would agree with this.

Somebody adapts Taoist metaphysics, drawn out of Taiji, to the power generation of a martial art and slaps the label "internal" on it.

What frustrates me is that by creating "internal" you create an opposite "external" which is defined as everything that is-not-internal.

My reading of the dedaojing is such that this is not the true Tao.

Only in the dissolution of opposites into unity will you find the Tao-That-Cannot-Be-Named.

Therefore the orthodox Taoist interpretation would be that there is no internal.

I agree with what you say here but then I think it would also lead us to conclude that Ving Tsun does have internal aspects. Why? Because like Yin Yang, the two powers are always at work together and not separate. They may not be used in the same proportions, but they're both present at least in some small form. Knowing the concepts of Yin Yang is also advised by the Kuen Kit as well. So Ving Tsun is not purely internal, nor is it purely external.

This can be said for Tai Chi as well. There is always a point where one can apply the energy of "push." The only difference is that the push will not oppose another push. The application of Tai Chi is not very different from Chi Sao either. Relaxed soft energy applies the minimum force necessary at the right time. It's never about simply smashing forearms and overpowering others.

I think the problem is that many people look at "internal" martial arts as if they require no work and build up energy that requires no physical power at all. That's just not true (at least from my experience). There's a lot more similarities between these movements than some may think:

Tai Chi


Shaolin (blurry but i chose it because it was facing the same direction as other two pics)


Western Boxing



just my 2c

[Hendrik]

But, at least as far as Ip Man lineages go, the Siu Nim Tao is internal and not very different from what you said about the "meditation in movement" seen in Tai Chi. It is the base of all the movements that are learned in Ving Tsun. The idea that Ving Tsun has internal aspects is not something new from the modern day Ving Tsun practitioners, this idea has been passed down in the Kuen Kit for generations. In fact, I'm sure even various kuen kit from different lineages would agree with this.

What the above Wing Chun non internal speculation comes from not knowing Siu Lin Tao is a fusion between White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang.

Emei 12 Zhuang has been in the Chinese history for past 700 years, it is deeply internal, and one still could find the written documentary in Beijing museum today.

This is another type of internal compare with the northern Xing Yi, Taiji ... type of internal. However it is Neigong and it is an authentic Chinese ancient art.



When discuss internal one needs to do lots of homework. If one doesnt know how many type of internal art in the Chinese history and how each of them different and what does it means to be internal, then there is no way one could discuss that. The term "internal" for each different style has their precise definition which is not up for anyone's interpretation or refine.

The biggest problem these days is everyone loves to define what is internal based on their own mind set, which doesnt only to confuse everything.

[anerlich]

maybe you should learn more about my own Sigung and Sifu?

Why, don't you rabbit on about them enough or something?

This has got to be the most boring and incredibly non-productive thread on this entire forum.

you haven't been here that long. There have been other threads that leave this one for dead in those stakes.

[Hardwork108]

Prove me wrong fu boy.

As your friend in fantasy would say.... show me the money

If you want to see the money, then go and get yours back from all those Mcdojo "kung fu-ists" who have taken you for a ride for all those years. LOL!

[Hardwork108]

It's funny to see people want their style to be "internal" as if "internal" is superior than "external".

To be honest and seriously speaking, I am not even arguing about the superiority of the Internals, I am just arguing that they EXIST, to start with.

[Hardwork108]

Here are the five elements that we "CAN PROVE" from reading this thread.....

1. Horse dung
2. Cow dung
3. Sheep sh1t
4. Dog sh1t
5. Cat sh1t

These are five valuable elements that are needed when posting comments like has been on this thread. They are part of the "Kuen Sh1t". More readily available than the made up nonsense kung fu ones!

GH

With that kind of mind, no wonder you have attracted only sh1tty sifus to yourself. It is called karma, my dear......

[Hardwork108]

if you can circle walk faster than the speed of light, you can make your opponent to change into a new born baby. Instead of fighting your opponent, you just carry him to the near by daycare center.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccshtnp2mau

lol!










.........

[GlennR]

Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.

1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.

2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.

Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Funny, after being shouted down for being a troll (ie anti-internal) and how i was wrecking an internal thread, i go back to the original poster who had the above to say.

So my dear internalists......as Scott asked a decade ago.... what are your points of support that says WC is internal?

Oh, and saying it is doesnt make it so

[Hardwork108]

Circle walking isn't the wisest course of action on a battlefield (in fact it'll get you dead fast) but in a duel being to change angles rapidly could have been of use, suggesting that Bagua may have evolved out of gentlemanly duelling arts as well as a grapple / lock basis.

Oh boy.....

You are another one who should chase the money, that is the money you have given to MCsifus, who took you for a ride all those years......

Boy, some of you guys would make the beginners in my kwoon fall down from laughing!