the characterisitcs of Bak Mei

[Falcor]

So all this talk on this forum regarding WHite Eyebrow has been interesting but not very informative about the art itself. COuld someone explain or describe to someone who does not know much about this art some more details about Bak Mei? What are its fighting strategies/tactics? How is the training typically conducted? What are its internal works like? What are its key principles? And so on. I'm not really interested in the lineages, but just in the nuts and bolts of the art itself. Thanks.

[Go Jun Long]

I have begun a new forum/group at: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/futshanbakmeipai/

The brief history topic has good information in it. Good luck in your studies.

[Pakmei]

Falcor,

Pak Mei has some similarities in stances and body shape to Chow Gar Tong Long (Chow Family [Southern] Preying Mantis).

However, Pak Mei is considered a soft and hard system, this means that the hands are soft until the moment upon impact.

The training, varies from school to school, though the way that I have been taught (as well as the way, that I teach) is quite traditional, with lots of emphasis made on Ha Ma (Stance and footwork) and Tun Tao Fao Chum (Breathing) and consitional the arms, body and legs, and not tomention basics, etc.

Without the fore mentioned, being trained properly, the Pak Mei stylist would not be able to use the Gang Jik Ging (Scared Power).

The style or forms are performed fast and powerfully, as if the Pak Mei stylist is actually in a fight. This helps to train the students mind, co-ordination, reflex, foundation, etc.

On the surface the style looks very basic, and quite external to the untrained eye. However anyone that practises the Hakka arts for example Loong Ying, Chow Gar Tong Long and Pak Mei, will be able to appreciate the soft - hard qualities that is used extensively thorughout the style, techniques, priinciples, etc

Hope that answers some of your questions about the Pak Mei style.

[EarthDragon]

Thank you falcor,
I have been interested in bak mei for a little while now but cant seem to find anyone that is very skilled in this art on the forum.

I did start a thread on the main forum board but it soon decayed into a fighting match between the children that swarm that board.

I am honestly interested in learning about bak mei and would hope I could find it on the southern board who could help me.

I would be very interested in someone with over 10 years in the stlye to ask questions reguarding tecniques in attcking and defense and how it differes from 8 step mantis.

Please come forward with some knowledgeable insight on this topic. Thank you ED

[Pakmei]

Hi Earth Dragon,

What in particular do you want to knwo about Pak Mei?

I been training in Pak Me for 13years, under my Sifu in London UK.

I'll be very happy to give you si=ome information and advice on the style.

PM or leave a message and I'll come back to you.

Regards

[EarthDragon]

Excellent Pak Mei.............
I finally found someone who could answer some questions. I have been looking on these boards for 3 weeks now but have only found a little.

1. What are the characteristics of atack and defense as far as trapping, timing, redirecting and so forth.
2. What kind of footwork?
3. What principles does it rely on to defend?
4. are actions instinctive rather than rehershed, ie. efficiencey,
natural, soft, countering or listening.
5. Do you utilize internal aspects for defense.
6.What stlyes have influenced other than wing chun.
7. is it a complete system i.e. internal, medicinal, tai chi, qigong religion?

Thank you in advance for answering these questions. I have only heard of this style while living in SF chinatown where I saw an old flyer for a seminar that had just passed before I got there from Zhong Lou, fishmonger's son and was quite impressed. I am a shrfu in ba bu tang lang for14 years and was drawn to it by the fierce fighting described in the flyer but dont know much else about it other than that, so i would love to know a little. You r help is deeply appreciated. sincerly ED

[TAO YIN]

Earth Dragon,

Here are some web forum links you might be interested in.


http://msn.groups.com/BaiMeiQuan/general.msnw

That is the Bai Mei discussion group at msn, lots of info there.


http://www.forumco.com/hungkuennet/default.asp

That is known as the Southern Fist Forum. There is lots of Bak Mei discussion there as well.

Basically, Generally speaking, to answer your questions...

Bak Mei is a complete system of Kung Fu which includes single man forms, two man hand forms, weapons forms, two man weapon forms, hakka and shaolin conditioning, chi gung, dit dar medicine and tcm, religion, etc. It has it all. In Bak Mei, basically speaking, your attack or your redirectied/deflective attack, is your defense. Bak Mei encompasses different usages of footwork such as half stepping, triangle stepping, full stepping, circle stepping, and etc. Internal and External aspects are used in a simultaneous yin/yang fashion. The idea being, that for total body effeciency to occur, you can't have one without the other. Yin/Yang Internal/External must work together. Both hands work together as one. While one hand is deflecting and (rubbing) the bridge, the other is atacking. The idea is "lin wan da sau" both hands continuously attacking. Actions are meant to be instinctive. Sticky hands, rubbing hands, and other hand exercises are the basis for attack. Bak Mei is all about sensitivity via sticking, rubbing, listening, and all of that.

The basic idea of attack is to make the bridge, use one of the 8 methods, and destroy the opponent, all in one motion.

I know this is a totally basic and rambling post as I'm on break at work, but I just wanted to get across to you at least a few of the foundational ideas of Bak Mei. As it is a complete system like 8 step mantis is, it would take hundreds of pages to discuss it all.....hope this sheds a little bit of light though.

Check out those websites, although much of the discussions turn into how many people clc defeated, and who has the most original style, there is heaps of useful info.

Hope I was of some help.

Take care,

TAO

[TIger Hand]

Bak Mei is an excellent system but I don't think it has it all.

It doesn't have groundfighting/grappling like BJJ, but then again which KF style does.

Nor does it have a lot of chin-na. It has some but not to the level of jiu-jitsu or fukien white crane.

On the other hand bak mei has what they call "scared power" which is something that you don't really see in almost any other style, chinese, japanese, korean...etc.

And the fascinating thing about the way a bak mei stylist learns to generate power, other than it's uniqueness, is that it can be applied to other techniqes from other styles; within certain limits of course.

[TAO YIN]

Tiger Hand,

Only on the surface, only on the surface. I was merely saying "It has it all, as a figure of speech refering to TCMA." Back to only on the surface.

Bak Mei has tons of Chin na, every circular movement represents a strike, a lock, a break, or a throw. Bak Mei is literally filled with chin-na. Kol la. You just gotta know what to look for.

As for it having a groundfighting game like bjj, bjj has a groundfighting game like bjj. That is there specialty. But, Bak Mei has heaps of groundfighting as well, you just have to know what to look for throughout the system...Speaking form wise, do you know the form day sut kuen? It translates to ground killing fist. Anyways, it has some awesome hits, locks, lock to break combos, lock to throw combos, lock to takedown combos, as well as some good chokes, arm breaks, and etc. Lay down, check out your leverage, your space, and shiot, and there you go.

[EarthDragon]

Tao Yin ,
Excellent post thats what I am looking for. I am actually trying to talk a friend into trying the system. He has been with me for a few years but has moved away and has no mantis in his area, but does have bak mei, so he asked my my opinon. I could not give him one because I did not know enough about the system to give it, and I am always honest and thorough(sp?) in my advice.

I have found many stlyes that lack the whole pie of CMA. Styles that just have a smal piece of the completeness. (I am spoiled and used to praying mantis). Like BJJ which is always compared to kung fu. why I dont know but bjj guys think kung fu is flashy and lacks ground skill. But that I believe is just out of lack of knowledge and comprehension.

I am glad you responded to my cry for help, as the other thread decayed into a mud slinging match.
PS I did leave you a message to come here so disreguard that now.
I will check out those sites you gave me and try to get some more info from there. Thank you so much and look forward to talking with you again although I am usually on the northern mantis side. please check out my webiste next time you are on break and veiw some good pictures. let me know what you think sincerly ED

Tiger Hand.
all complete kung fu styles have ground fighting in them. Remember bjj came from japanese jujitsu which came from shuai chiao (chinese wrestling), so please do not assume bjj is independant and not originally from chinese kung fu, everything is from kung fu......... peace ED

[Falcor]

Coolness. Thanks for all the detailed info. A couple of questions if you don't mind:

1. I've had some experience with SPM in the past and retain most of what I've learned (which wasn't all that much, but what I got was good stuff). How similar are these two (considering their mutual Hakkaness) in terms of training methodology and fighting tactics/strategy?

2. Is there and if so what is - the core sets of Bakmei? Or the Pillars that embody the essence of Bakmei?

and finally,

3. Since it's known as an internal/external system, what aspects are considered internal and what aspects are considered external? Does it have Qigong/Heigung sets that are more internal and fighting sets that are more external (for example)? Can you explain a little more about this?

Thanks a bunch!

[Falcor]

Oh, I do have one more question

4. I've heard that Bakmei also incorporates a number of animals. How is this done? Is it more the energy/intent of the animals like Hsing-I or does it have more physical techniques of the animals like Hung Ga?

[TAO YIN]

Earth Dragon,

I am glad that I could be of some help to you. Bak Mei is a kewl art, and I think that your friend would benefit from it with a good Sifu. Anyways, I checked out your website! Cool stuff! IMHO, from the very little that I have seen, 8 Step Mantis Rocks!! I remember seeing an old black and white vid clip of 8 Step Mantis once. I can't remember the guys name at the moment?? Maybe Wei? But anyways, he was an older man and he moved effortlessly and had fast springy hands. Actually, I stayed as a full-time student at the Wah Lum Temple in Orlando for a little while. I thought that it had turned a little too Wushuish, but there were some people there that definetely had developed some mad skills. This was before I had even heard about 8 Step, so I really didn't know any better. Is 8 Step Mantis similar to Wah Lum's Jut Sow Mantis at all? From what I have heard, 8 Step is a very combat oriented Northern Mantis system. Can you tell me a little bit more about 8 Step? I hope to talk to you again!


Falcor,

Awesome questions. I will try my best to answer, but be sure to take what I say with a grain of salt!!

1.

In terms of training methodology and fighting tactics/strategy, both SPM and Bak Mei are extremely similar. With both arts, I don't see much in the area of defense persay. I think both arts follow the idea that the best defense is an awesome offense. In other words, bridge up with the opponent or smash his bridge, and then beat him to death in the most efficent way. Both systems use Geng Jak Ging and Fou Chum Tun Tou. Although each system has its own different way of expressing these powers, the end result is usually a sudden vast amount of short power attacks aimed at vital pressure points. Both arts used iron body and iron hand techniques. Both use various conditioning tools such as roller bar, iron rings, claw bags, and iron palm bags, just to name a few. Both systems are very "hands on" with 3, 5, and 7 star drills, many different types of 2 man sensitivity drills, close range sparring, and etc.

As far as differences...of course there are lots there too. Bak Mei is mainly left side forward, and SPM from what I know is right side forward. IMHO, Bak Mei is a softer than SPM, although this is hard to prove. IMHO, SPM is a bit shorter range than bak mei, although this is difficult to say too as it depends on the practitioner. Anyways, in a nutshell, both of these arts are strikingly similar hakka styles. Of course, there are differences between them, but hey, this post is way to long to begin with, and I am no authority.


2.

The Core/Pillar forms of Bak Mei are Jik Bo Kuen, Gow Bo Tui, Sup Baat Mor Kuil, and Meng Fu Chut Lum.


3.

Woah you had to ask this one...hehehe. In some lineages of Bak Mei, they have chi gung meditation specifically to develop the internal. However, I want to keep this to one idea. With these pillar sets, internal and external is simultaneously combined with the breath. Bak Mei uses Fou Chum Tun Tou and Geng Jak Ging. All of this basically translates to "proper body mechanics" with breath. The idea is for each move to have an equal amount of internal and external power, and simultaneously flow into the next move. The "scared power" is what happens at the end of the strike so to speak. The strikes goes from soft to hard and back to soft again or vice versa depending on the situation. Therefore the attacks are always flowing, always hitting. When you hit the opponent with the phoenix eye fist for instance, the idea is you sink your breath and contract all of your joints and muscles at once behind the fist. Therefore, your entire being is behind every hit, and every hit flows into the next hit. Anyways, this is the basic idea more or less.

Woah, Ive already posted too long a post, sorry for the ramble

4.

Too be continued......anyone else want to chime in here perhaps?


Sincerely,

Tao

[Shaolin Dude]

in jackie chan's my story, he mentioned bak mei uses the teeth. what's the purpose of that?

[Lowlynobody]

Well I haven't seen jackie chan's my story but the teeth are kept closed and are clenched with each strike. This reduces the rebound that happens when bak mei fundermentals are used to strike with ging. Else you can give yourself a headache and not all of your power is going into the person being struck. Bak Mei power is sometimes like a whole body spasim for an instant and then relaxed again.

4. Animals - one way bak mei incorporates animals is via the body posture which is called hum hung bart boy. ie tiger back, dragon waist, monkey stomach and chest, eagle vision and spirit shown in the eyes, etc. Another way is via the mindset. Bak Mei is a tiger system and, when taught right, very aggressive.

One thing different between Bak Mei and SPM is the dynamic tension which is in SPM at the start. But realy the two powers are much the same in the end. The power is the same its just developed in a different way. I think the iron shirt that are in both systems are much the same as well. This type of iron shirt is a result of the power generation method which is based very much on breathing, luk hup, fau chum tun tou, hum hung bart boy, and the stance. Thus a strike them when being struck or strike when they move mentality is used to great effect. Strike with ging and you will not get hurt.

Yau Kung Mun has a set called Ying Ching which has alot of dynamic tension in it and I think sort of bridges the gap. Though the set is not from SPM. Truly if you want to get a good feel for what Bak Mei is realy like in application and see some application clips that are good go to www.yaukungmun.com.au and check out the technique workshop page. Now people might get p i s s y by me putting that up but realy you will find no better site.

And check out that bakmeiquan forum. Myself and Tao Yin have been posting on there for a while now. And there are some who know alot on there though they post little.


LN.