other's kung fu

[illusionfist]

As far as being WC...maybe I am, but then again maybe I'm not ...afterall that is what a screen name is for. But if you REALLY need to know...okay...you go first!

Well, since you have a penchant for playing "gee ying chim lei" I can see where the apparent lack of offering up a name in other areas has suited you well.

Peace

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by illusionfist
As far as being WC...maybe I am, but then again maybe I'm not ...afterall that is what a screen name is for. But if you REALLY need to know...okay...you go first!

Well, since you have a penchant for playing "gee ying chim lei" I can see where the apparent lack of offering up a name in other areas has suited you well.

Likewise

GHD

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by illusionfist

If your sigung called it "four lower tigers", then I cannot dispute this. However I can dispute the use of another "marked" phrase used by the Wing Lam camp that was once on Shaolin West's site in reference to the weapon called "Thunder Hoe" (which is not the transliteration of the weapon). Once again, this is a name that only the Wing Lam camp uses. How do you justify using the same name as well?

AH....that name was never on Shaolin West's site...no other name referring to that weapon was used ...Sifu Cameron does not even teach it or know it.
As far as the rest of your post (long), I am neither a geographer and I would not make magnaminous and all encompassing statements that no other person has translated it that way. As far as Toisan...it was a comparison example and totally relevant...no need to get insulting.

Have a nice day.

GHD

[Vash]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
if you saw someone perform and there moves had no power their stances were weak. but they're like "aw man im the best in my school, sifu says im great" would you jsut be like

1.) yeah okay? and leave
or
2.) you suck, your school sucks

I have had this happen to me and i was just respectful and like "yeah that was a nice form, or not bad not bad."

what would you do?

Pretty much what you said. I wouldn't critique, as I know defensiveness comes in spades here. I would also avoid the school which produced this amazing warrior.

[illusionfist]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon


Likewise

GHD

Sorry chief, but I think Hung Kuen's delineation from Hung Hei Gun down to modern day is pretty clear and concise. I don't think there is anything ambigious about our lineage.

As for the "Thunder Hoe", your former student Kung Lek even mentioned it on the boards in the past. So whether you know it or not is moot, but it was mentioned. It's not a big deal really, I just wanted clarification.


Peace

[David Jamieson]

Sorry chief, but I think Hung Kuen's delineation from Hung Hei Gun down to modern day is pretty clear and concise. I don't think there is anything ambigious about our lineage.

I would disagree, there has been as much infighting amongst the Hung Gar families over these points as is found in other wider families of Kungfu.

As for the "Thunder Hoe", your former student Kung Lek even mentioned it on the boards in the past. So whether you know it or not is moot, but it was mentioned. It's not a big deal really, I just wanted clarification.

I-fist- I really think you must have been thinking of someone else. Thunder Hoe? What the heck is that? Seriously, I've never made mention of it.

I personally have this observation.

Sifu Cameron runs a pretty tight ship and is diligent in his Kungfu practice.
His Kungfu is outstanding and in my opinion pretty much the best that the city he lives in has to offer.

I am not so certain that maybe some people would pick at his lineage perhaps because of some uncertanties about their own? Nothing scratches an unsure itch like the validation of a fallen soldier in your gun sites afterall. If this is not the case, ain't no nevermind.

Even though I am no longer a member of Sifu Cmerons school, I would still vouch for his kungfu and his ability to teach it. What I have learned of it has helped me on a lot of levels both healthwise and in refining my ability to defend myself, so, frankly that history of it is unimportant. I don't think sifu wes's history is anymore clouded than anyone elses and frankly if you go far enough back I don't think anyone here under any teacher alive can provide any bonafide "proof" of anyones existance.

If they can I would sure like to see it. Just an observation and nothing personal here.

The real question pertaining to Kungfu should be "does it satisfy you in your practice of it" and not "is it for real?" "where is it from?" etc etc.

You can't possess it anyway and in Ch'an practice as has been mentioned it is better to not try to possess these not as meaningful things as the core practice itself. And even then, it still has to be made "yours" at which point it is not some mark on a timeline.

So, at this point in time, my personal kungfu is a mix of Black Tiger, North Shaolin, Wing Chun, Hsing I and Tai chi. In 10 years, I am certain it will be different again, depending on where my interests take me

I would agree with Ghd that there is an alignment with Hung in the BT of Shaolin West Kungfu school. I can crack open a lam tsai wing book and find techniques that are directly found in the Black tiger. It's true I can't find much similar in Wing chun to it though, but here's something, I can find things in Wing Chun that are similar if not directly the same techniques as are found in Hung Gar as well.

So, all this tells me is that they all have Shaolin at the root.

cheers

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by illusionfist


Sorry chief, but I think Hung Kuen's delineation from Hung Hei Gun down to modern day is pretty clear and concise. I don't think there is anything ambigious about our lineage.

As for the "Thunder Hoe", your former student Kung Lek even mentioned it on the boards in the past. So whether you know it or not is moot, but it was mentioned. It's not a big deal really, I just wanted clarification.

Presumtuous, presumptuous, presumptuous...

I'm no Chief.

Never said it was not...but now that you mention it...ditto kL's remarks regarding HG's lineage.
Who said KL was a former student of myself?...not I.
Regarding thunder hoe again, you go off the deep end making false statements and then say whether or not I know it (thunder hoe comment) is moot...honestly ...first you are making claims the SW site says this and that it is from WL, then when it is pointed out it was never there you say it is moot as it was mentioned on this forum by KL and even that you got wrong...sheeesh!

Like I said you seem to have some personal agenda with Shaolin West and Sifu Cameron.

You use Peace at the end of your posts...but really all you attempt to do is make war.

GHD

[illusionfist]

GHD and Kung Lek,

The point I was trying to make with Hung Kuen's lineage is that, although parts of the dilineation can be argued (say for instance, who has more importance to the Wong family line- Hung Hei Gun or Luk Ah Choy?), the delineation to modern day is still there and there are no gaps with "unknown" masters. Who in their right mind would propagate a lineage without knowing their father?

No big deal on the Thunder Hoe, if you say you didn't say it, that's cool. I can't really prove it anyway since the archives don't go back far enough.

As for my "moot" comment, it really is since what you can claim and what you show are two different things. This is really where the entire argument of this thread (albeit hijacked- sorry shaolinlueb) lies since what is claimed and what is shown don't jive.

Other than that, I don't have anything left to add to this thread.

Peace

[jmd161]

Gold Horse Dragon,

It obvious me trying to carry on a discussion with you is not going to go anywhere.You are someone that "clearly" has something to hide ,and you prove that point by not admitting that you are Wes Cameron.You slipped in one of your post and let the cat out of the bag ,and many ppl here noticed that but it's cool.

I've already given you three names from within our lineage.Su Hak Fu,Fung Ping-Wai,and Grandmaster Wong Cheung.I asked who was the sifu of this sifu you can't name ,and you chose to ignore the question and ask a question of me.

I asked why is it that you don't have any of the things black tiger is known for in your lineage? Once again you chose to reply with a question to a question.

I like how you answer questions with questions. It distracts ppl from you not answering the question you were asked.So you get out of answering the question and take the spotlight off yourself and redirect it at the person asking the question.That's a very smart way of backingout without looking like you've backedout.When you redirect the question. If the person does'nt answer It looks as if they backed out.

Originally posted by Wes Cameron
You keep saying this but I think you protest too much Laddie...for all the black balling you are doing here.

I merely asked questions.

" You took it as an attack!"

They were questions you could've easily answered and ended any speculation ,but you chose to use the tactic i stated above.




jeff

[Roc Doc]

KUNG LEK,
hooray!!! now we are getting somewhere...

" I don't think sifu wes's history is anymore clouded than anyone elses and frankly if you go far enough back I don't think anyone here under any teacher alive can provide any bonafide proof of anyones existence"
~kung lek

where is the real kung fu... where (who) is the practitioner...
welcome to ch'an!!! we just entered the HEART SUTRA

this is the coolest thing to happen to this thread...


~doc

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by jmd161
Gold Horse Dragon,

It obvious me trying to carry on a discussion with you is not going to go anywhere.You are someone that "clearly" has something to hide ,and you prove that point by not admitting that you are Wes Cameron.You slipped in one of your post and let the cat out of the bag ,and many ppl here noticed that but it's cool.

I've already given you three names from within our lineage.Su Hak Fu,Fung Ping-Wai,and Grandmaster Wong Cheung.I asked who was the sifu of this sifu you can't name ,and you chose to ignore the question and ask a question of me.

I asked why is it that you don't have any of the things black tiger is known for in your lineage? Once again you chose to reply with a question to a question.

I like how you answer questions with questions. It distracts ppl from you not answering the question you were asked.So you get out of answering the question and take the spotlight off yourself and redirect it at the person asking the question.That's a very smart way of backingout without looking like you've backedout.When you redirect the question. If the person does'nt answer It looks as if they backed out.



I merely asked questions.

" You took it as an attack!"

They were questions you could've easily answered and ended any speculation ,but you chose to use the tactic i stated above.

In reality...you are the one who has/is doing what you claim I have done. Now either you did not fully read the point by point post or you are not too good at comprehension of what you have read.
I took the time to answer every question. which I did not have to do with a person like you..and I had some of my own which you have not answered and maybe cannot answer. Again...where is your proof of what you claim?
As far as being WC...like I said Laddie...maybe I am and maybe I'm not...makes no difference to the post.
I have checked back on some of your posts. You used to have reasonable posts, but now you have turned into a sanctimonious, my style is the only 'real' one, pretending to be nice hippocrit.
I'm sure you won't like what I am saying, buy frankly at this point I don't give a d@mn.

GHD

[wushu chik]

This thread has so gotten to the point of "you suck, your kung fu sucks" on both sides. It's hilarious honestly. Nothings ever going to get accomplished due to the fact that questions will NEVER be answered honestly.

I think this goes to show exactly who knows what! The silence of some, and louness of others proves to me that there's something going on here that just isn't right. There's nothing much else that can be said.

~Wen~

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by wushu chik
This thread has so gotten to the point of "you suck, your kung fu sucks" on both sides. It's hilarious honestly. Nothings ever going to get accomplished due to the fact that questions will NEVER be answered honestly.

I think this goes to show exactly who knows what! The silence of some, and louness of others proves to me that there's something going on here that just isn't right. There's nothing much else that can be said.

~Wen~

Show me where I said anyones kung fu sucks.

GHD

[jmd161]

Gold Horse Dragon,

Once again you reply with questions to questions.

Originally posted by Wes Cameron

I took the time to answer every question.

Where is it that you answered my question of

Originally posted by jmd161
who was the sifu of this sifu you can't name?

Originally posted by Wes Cameron
I had some of my own which you have not answered and maybe cannot answer

I have no problems answering any of your questions.The problem i have is that you side step mine and ask another of me.So what happens is i'll be answering your question without you answering mine.I have provided you with three names from my lineage you have yet to provide me with "one".

Originally posted by Wes Cameron
As far as being WC...like I said Laddie...maybe I am and maybe I'm not...makes no difference to the post.

That is true you have a point.It makes no difference to the post ,but it does to the thread.If a person can'not admit that they are who they are.How can you expect them to admit they are teaching forms and techniques from a video? Not saying that you do! But if you can't be honest about who you are.Can you be trusted in what you say?

Originally posted by Wes Cameron
You used to have reasonable posts, but now you have turned into a sanctimonious, my style is the only 'real' one, pretending to be nice hippocrit.

Well thank you!

I try to offer info and knowledge whenever i can to a thread.I'm sorry you feel that my methods of posting have changed. Because i was not aware that i had changed them. When/where did you see me post that our black tiger is the only "real" one?

Let me go back thru my post and check?

hmmmm i checked and this is all i found.

Originally posted by jmd161
You are right there are different styles of black tiger but not all are TCMA.Before 10 yrs ago there were only three known styles of Black Tiger.

1.Hak Fu Munh- From the lineage of Su Hak Fu the creator of black tiger. One of the Ten Tigers of Canton,and the black tiger lineage that Wong Fei Hung himself learned.

2.Shantung Black Tiger-The Northern China Black Tiger style.

3.Fu Jow Pai Tigers Claw-From the lineage of Grandmaster Wai Hong.

I'm not going to go into anything about the other black tiger styles.I'm not saying that your black tiger is not real or is not TCMA because i don't know about your black tiger at all.All i know about your black tiger is what i've seen in those videos on Shaolin West's website.

So i fail to see where i said that we are or was the only real black tiger style.It seems to me that you took offense to me saying that your black tiger favors Fu Jow Pai? If that's the case? I'm sorry you got offended.But i did say that was just "My" opinion.

Originally posted by Wes Cameron
I'm sure you won't like what I am saying, buy frankly at this point I don't give a d@mn.

I'm truly sorry you took that attitude.Like i said before it was a discussion i was hoping to find out what we have in common.Being that you are a sifu of black tiger i thought you might have more knowledge of the style than a student of yours.So i chose to hear it from the horses mouth no pun intended.

Now that i think about it. This might have been the wrong place to do it.But you could've also taken it to pm or email yourself if you felt there was a problem with the way i was asking you questions on this forum.

I would not mind talking to you through e-mail or pm.Infact i have spoken to you through e-mail about a yr or two ago and thought it went well.I've even spoke of it on this forum that i had respect for you.If you choose to not answer the questions fine that's your choice.If you choose not to share info to find where our styles might have crossed that's fine also.

But don't turn everything around to make it look like i'm attacking you and calling you a fake! I never said what you teach is not real black tiger or is stolen black tiger.I said that it seems like your black tiger and Fu Jow Pai have alot in common that's all.

So what happens after this is up to you.We can discuss through e-mail what we share in common to find a common link within the chinese black tiger styles? Or we can not speak at all? It really is no big deal.The only thing that matters is that you can apply what you know when needed.



jeff

[David Jamieson]

c'mere xi li and i'll show you how much my kungfu sucks. LOL.

who are you anyway?

wen~ silence can be taken as a lot of things if ya get my inference. As for standing up for yourself, well, that's a part of kungfu ain't it? don't ya think? A comment about silence coming from you, well if that don't beat all.

oh and btw,... who are you?

you guys can think what you like. oh and i have learned from books and i have even learned a set off a video. But i have to say that for the most part the study i've done is in class or in private lessons.

I don't make claim to any lineage and I don't teach Kungfu either. I'm a private practitioner and I don't have a problem with learning from whatever sources are available.

If I learned a set from a video, I would just say I did that, and I have, here and elsewhere made that statement. It's not the bulk of instruction I've gotten, but if what each of you is saying is that books and videos are crap then you are insulting every kungfu teacher who has ever put one out! And there are a lot of pretty good fu guys who make and sell videos of their arts and books as well. Again, I would say that this shows you are less open to learning and more into the "my pop is bigger than your pop" stuff. Which is just empty words.

Anyhoo. Just sayin that you are not pointing these things out apparently for any reason other than to satisfy your own ego, waylay your own insecurity about it or just to be malicious. I don't see how it is helpful to anyone to say" oh you learned from a video, therefor you suck". That is weak and is a "mark" of no kungfu in you

so, i'll keep practicing and i'll keep getting it where i can kids.
cheers