Punched a tai chi guy in the stomache as hard as I could

[Toby]

Liokault,

OK. Got it to work. It wouldn't work in Mozilla under Linux, Mozilla under Windows, but it works under IE6 under Windows.

Very interesting. Both clips are the same, so I don't know why they have the two links. The 1st jump looks like there is a bit of compression of his stomach (the hitting the rubber tyre analogy that is mentioned often?). The 2nd and 3rd jumps (esp the 3rd) there seems to be no compression of the stomach. Which leads me to conclude that he is flexing his abdominal muscle very hard. Wish I had a stomach like that . Anyway, if it's not giving away any secrets, what exactly does your nei gung consist of? I know of a few exercises that I've been taught which I suspect come from xing yi, but I'm a long way off learning XY formally so I don't know if they're part of the curriculum. Also, when someone jumps on your stomach, how much do you flex it? Surely you can't have it relaxed - I would have thought maximum tension.

[KungFuGuy!]

This thread has gone in a very different direction than the one it was started with, as most good threads do, but I'd like to chime in with some more about what I've been doing.
Today my teacher spent an hour kicking my ass in front of the rest of the class. It was the greatest martial arts class I've ever had. My arm and neck still hurt, but I don't care
It all started when I asked him if tai chi is useful from the ground, as I've noticed everything seems to be derived from our rooted legs. He explained that it was, and why, and them demonstrated. He grabbed my arm after I punched at him like he instructed, he fell back, and put me in a triangle. He put enough pressure on my neck and arm to hurt but not to do damage, and told me to try to get out of it. I wasn't able to go forward and try to flip him over like I've been trained to do in the past, and by the time I managed to wiggle my head free he'd have been able to snap my neck or arm or both. His power was beyond muscles, there was no budging him.
Then he suggested I do the same to him. I kinda realized that no matter how hard I did it, it would have no effect, so I went all out. Almost instantly after I locked him up, he had me bent in on myself and pinned.
Then was the coolest part. He asked me to put an arm lock on him, the way cops do it. So I took his arm, locked it behind his back, then forced him to the ground. It seemed like he went with me more than I forced him. So on the ground I had his arm locked still, one knee pressing on his head and the other on his back. He asked me if I had the hold as hard as I could, I said yes, and then a second later I was on the ground and he had my wrist locked.
This lead to lots more fun. Me and the other girl around my age, who's also had previous training, spent the next while getting our asses handed to us in turn. Most of it wasn't even him telling us to do something, we just came at him and he'd have us incapacitated in a couple seconds. It was like those videos that get posted on these boards of cool looking rehearsed and expected techniques performed by a teacher, except it wasn't rehearsed or expected at all.
He'd even let us put a hold on him full force for a few seconds to show that it didn't hurt him in the least. It was very...discouraging. It felt like I had no power at all, I felt like a 5 year old trying to beat up an adult.
I put a wrist lock on him that I've used on someone before, it brought this person to the ground easily. My teacher simply took it for a couple seconds without moving, then he said "spine drops" and he was out of the hold, then said "spine expands" and he had me in a wrist lock of his own.
He then got into a bit of pressure point stuff. He pressed a spot on my hand as I pushed him, I lost all power in my push and my hand hurt. It was a strange feeling.
This guy is amazing. I've heard and believed things like this before, but I'd never thought I'd see it, much less learn from someone who can do it.

[scotty1]

Good for you Lucky guy.


"if it's not giving away any secrets, what exactly does your nei gung consist of?"

That would be giving away secrets

[Liokault]

Toby

The 1st jump looks like there is a bit of compression of his stomach (the hitting the rubber tyre analogy that is mentioned often?). The 2nd and 3rd jumps (esp the 3rd) there seems to be no compression of the stomach. Which leads me to conclude that he is flexing his abdominal muscle very hard. Wish I had a stomach like that . Anyway, if it's not giving away any secrets, what exactly does your nei gung consist of?

I am not saying that they did or did not tense their abs during the jump. What I as saying is that they did not do lots of sit ups (or other ab exersize) to get strong abs to enable them to do this. The nei gung works the diaphram differantly whice is why the nei gung work first on the lower torso. But as I have said they are a breathing exersize and not akin to situps or crunches.

If you want to know more ask Scotty1 as he is about to do his nei gung this weekend.....then in 3 months we can jump on him LOL

[Toby]

Stop teasing .

I do various ab exercises on the side to get strong stomach muscles. Obviously I'm concentrating on the abdominal and the obliques, since that's what western exercises do. Mine are relatively strong.

However, my sigung has an exceptionally strong stomach. Different to what situps produce. Probably exactly what your guys have in the video, except he's 6'4", 124 kg. AFAIK, he does no situps although we do them as part of our warmup (in WC). I don't know if his stomach was developed like this before learning xing yi, or if it's a result of xing yi. As I said, I'm not yet learning xy and won't for a few years. However, we have a few exercises. They use tension to develop strength. We are also told how to breathe during various forms and exercises, although no specific nei gung. Strength should also be developed in the core (sigung says dan tien, stomach and spine). Should get similar results to western core strengthening exercises, but different methodology.

Interesting side note - I've got Pavel Tsatsouline's Bulletproof Abs. One of the exercises in the book (from memory) is called Bending the Fire. Inhale 3/4 capacity and suck in stomach maximally. Contract muscles maximally and expand slowly to normal stomach position as you exhale to the count of 5. Explosively expel the last of your breath as you reach maximal contraction and come back to rest position. Apparently one of the most effective stomach exercises in the book, but definitely not western. Similar to any of your nei gung?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby

Very interesting. Both clips are the same, so I don't know why they have the two links.

No they're not. One clip has 3 guys and 3 jumps, the other has 5 guys and 6 jumps or something. Maybe you clicked the same clip twice?

[Toby]

Whoops. I don't remember now, but I think they started the same, so I kept clicking at the slider button to skip the setup sections 'cause I only wanted to see the jumps. I saw three jumps that looked the same in both, but I must've missed the other few in the 2nd vid. I'm running Linux at the moment and can't be bothered rebooting, so I'll have to review them another time.

Any nei gung descriptions Liokault, scotty1? Still waiting ...

[scotty1]

...I wouldn't hold your breath, pun intended.

[dz]

*unlurks*

Toby, here's an excerpt from Dan's book Complete Tai Chi Chuan, this is pretty much all we can tell you about the Nei Kung without giving away any secrets.

As a pracitioner of Dan Dochterty's style myself, I've done the stomach-jumping-thingy. Note that this text is about how the Nei Kung was done traditionally. I haven't followed the abstinence rule - and yet I magically survived.

There you go:

"There are twelve Yin and twelve Yang exercises. Ideally, we would do the twelve Yin exercises and the last Yang exercise one day and the twelve Yang exercises and the first Yin exercise the next day, and continue to alternate them - although if you are sick or feeling weak, then it is better to place more emphasis on the Yin exercises. This gives us a daily training regimen of Thirteen Tactics, all of which in different combinations are trained in the Nei Kung.

Some exercises are static and have no direct self-defence purpose, although they are very useful in strengthening the joints and tendons and training the determination; others are moving and have one or more applications as well as some therapeutic aspect. Only the third part of the final Yang exercise contains a purely meditative aspect. The therapeutic aspects make the body more flexible and hence less prone to injury, and are also useful as a type of self-administered physiotherapy to help with joint, tendon and bone injuries.

The exercises can be done on three levels: the basic level for all the exercises would take up to one hour for either the Yin or the Yang set; the intermediate level for Tai Chi fighters takes from two to three hours; while the advanced level for Tai Chi masters could take up to seven hours. The exercises are also referred to as one hundred-day Kung: after daily practice of the Yin exercises for this period as well as abstinence from sex, male students can be tested by taking blows to the body and having someone jump onto the abdomen from a height of six feet."


I usually don't lurk on this board anymore, and if anyone has questions regarding PTCC, they are welcome to e-mail me: dz@muha.net

Merry X-mas!

//dz

[Liokault]

So how did it go Scotty1? No nookie for you or 100 days LOL

[scotty1]

ello

"training the determination" you're not fvcking joking.

They're not that bad though. I managed

One of the boys now All I've got to do is train the bloody things.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by dz
*unlurks*
this is pretty much all we can tell you about the Nei Kung without giving away any secrets.

Hehe. Next time someone asks me about weightlifting I'll say something like "well, I can't tell you very much about the Smolov cycle because that would be giving away secrets."

j/k. That was good info, tho.

How young of people don't have sex for 100 days? Um, cuz things happen while you sleep. If you don't release the stuff during the day your body will do it for you at night. I mean maybe a week or two is realistic, but 100 days? Yeah right. At least for people my age (22).

[Liokault]

. At least for people my age (22).

Well I am 31 and its still tough belive me! I mean that I would have to miss sex about twice!!!

[Toby]

Well, well, well ...

From a total tangent, I found myself talking about this stuff with my sigung last night. I didn't get too many specifics from him. Maybe I'm not ready for them. But he did drop a few hints. Very interesting. Showed me how to resist fingers digging into my side, and the results were impressive. Also corrected one of my basic (nei gung?) traditional exercises that he showed us a while back. Made a world of difference. If I knew more, I might be a believer after all.

One more thing, the resisting of fingers that he showed me definitely didn't have me relaxing my muscles. Maybe if I reach a higher level one day I can do that, but I doubt it. In fact, his abdomen (and whole trunk) muscles are so developed that they seem contracted all the time. Very solid, anyway.

Just means I know that I'll have to be a headhunter when I come up against one of you guys. Don't have any nei gung to strengthen your brain against concussion, do you?


dz, thanks for unlurking and posting that stuff.


Liokault - you married too?

[[Censored]]

Don't have any nei gung to strengthen your brain against concussion, do you?

You obviously haven't seen Shaolin Soccer.