Brooklyn Monk Article

[wall]

well, the article was indeed creating a very unappealing picture of Shaolin as a "tourist" destination even for the hard-core Martist, but I think that we should read between the lines.

The author was very unorganized, quite prepared to follow pushy indications of strangers, and most of all was doing it really rough and on the cheap.

I have 2 friends who have been to Shaolin, and I am currently planning my first trip, 2 weeks, at Easter 2004. Frankly with the CTIS support, 3-4 star Shaolin Hotel accomodation, South China Air flight to Z.Z. and then private car booked to the hotel ..... I don't think there will be too much dealing with mucus, monthly showers and dirty food. Tuition organized with friends teachers means knowing what you get, teaching wise, and who will give it to you, before even stepping on a plane.

The author went to a borderline third world location with barely enough budget to live like/with the locals: of course he'd then be faced with all the tipical scenarios like filth, scams for a few dollars, dirty toilets, no water, etc etc etc.

I think that as westerners we should realize that we are largely completely unprepared to deal with such conditions, and therefore either have the budget to pay for standards closer to what we are used to, or perhaps better stay home rather than live like sh!t, deal with predictable poverty-driven filth and hustles, and then be surprised / upset / harmed .....

I openly admit that given to my fortunate middle-class western life I could not stand nor deal with such conditions at all, so guess what .... I avoid them. Thus 2 weeks of Shaolin "luxury" rather than months of Shaolin "trauma".

Common sense goes a long way, and the author didn't display much IMO.

W

PS he's lucky not to have anything lifelong (see hepC or HIV) having had a quite probably unsterilized IV needle in a Chinese country "hospital"!

[BentMonk]

As has been said in previous posts, common sense goes a long way. It sounds to me like the author didn't research what he was getting himself into, and didn't realize what was going on until it was way too late. If you're going to any foreign country in which you are a serious minority, you are going to be perceived as an easy mark for inscrutable locals. If I planned to visit any foreign land, I would establish as strong a life line as possible. No way would I arrive having to place my trust solely in people I'd never met. I would also learn as much of the language as possible. As has also been said, it's easy for me to sit here and play "what if" from my comfy living room. Still, if I plan on jumping in the water I'm checking the depth and watching for sharks, no leaps of faith happening here.

[GeneChing]

Listen to me now and hear me later - if you're going to China, get all your Hep shots. It's just wise.

OK, here's the solution.

First, go to the PSB (Public Security Bureau - the cops). Tourism is a major industry for Shaolin and neighboring Dengfeng, so the cops will help you. It's about saving face. That school is breaking the law and the cops will address the issue. They take good care of foreigners at Shaolin, at least the earnest ones. Be patient, because it might take you a while to get an English speaker. If you check out the nice map I provided in the new Shaolin special, the PSB is clearly marked.

Second, go to CITS (China International Travel Service). This is a national organization that arranges tours for foreigners. Despite being national, the quality of service you get in different regions from CITS is very uneven. Some will outright rip you off. But the group in Dengfeng is fantastic. They are so helpful and friendly. Be patient, because it might take you a while to get an English speaker. Ask for my dear friend, Mr. Wang Yu Min, if he's available (he often tours with the monks - right now he's in Australia I think). He's the one who saved the ass of the guy we're talking about. If you check out the nice map I provided in the new Shaolin special, the CITS office is clearly marked.

Third and most important, transfer to a bigger school. There are 80 schools at Shaolin, so one down, 79 to go. If you ask people like John Greenhow, they move from school to school, working the best deal. For the most part, only the small schools resort to such strong arm tactics. The larger schools are much more reputable. A few even can provide you with a translator. Now, if you're a foreigner at any school, that's a lot of face for them. Some little school isn't going to go and challenge a larger school. Try Tagou, that school was at 13,000 last year. Do you think a 300 student school is gong to challenge a 13,000 student school over little old you? Hell no. A small nefarious school might try to intimidate you, a lone foreigner, but their not going to start tribal war, especially if they are outnumbered, not over you. If you check out the nice map I provided in the new Shaolin special, several of the larger and more reputable schools are clearly marked.

It's all in that Shaolin special. And don't worry, my dear Shaolin kin, big brother Gene will hold your hand and get you through the first EASY chambers of Shaolin. After that, you're on your own.

[Tak]

Hey, I said number three!

Or he could join a larger school and rely on his new kung fu brothers to help him defend himself.

As for number one, I made the mistake of thinking the contract was legal and binding. Didn't even think of number two.

[MasterKiller]

Instead of running to the police, Gordon Lui would have just sucked it up and trained.

[GeneChing]

See where that got him? Old gordon is now getting his butt kicked by Uma while doing a bad Kato impersonation. OK, ok,
'nuff respect to Gordon, I really enjoy his stuff.

Tak is in the door and ready to move on to the next chamber. As for the rest of you, back down to the river to get more buckets of water!

In all honesty, when that guy came up to me with his sad story, my first reaction was to say "you're ****ed" but I thought about it and sent him on to CITS. The rest was history. About a week later, he seemed happy as a clam, sporting a newly shaved bald pate, training his little heart out.

[johngreenhow]

Good answer, Gene.

I don't want to argue, and I mean absolutely no disrespect to Antonio or his martial arts ability (which is no doubt well above mine) but having read his article I'd like to comment.

Firstly, getting the ****s and not being able to walk for a couple of days cos of it is nothing to get scared by. I mean, come on, at any one time one of us was going through it. It's called the Shaolin Slim Fast. The IV always makes you feel better too.

DengFeng hospital might be grim, but the guys know what they're doing, use clean, new needles and are *very* used to treating kungfu students.

The kung fu brother thing deserves a comment too. Someone might be *called* your brother but that's not what it's about. I never really put much store in what I heard before I got to Shaolin, including this brother thing. Over enthusiastic movie fans, I thought. But having left my school and hearing that the Sifu continues to give a few of my training buddies some problems, I'm compelled to go out of my way to help.

Not because someone just told me they were my brothers, but because we've been through two months SARS quarantine together; because we've faced down a Shaolin Sifu together; because every ****ing day for 6 months we spent hours sweating it out with a common goal. If someone told me when I arrived that I was bound for life to a crazed French guy, an acrobatic Belgium and forty 16 yeard olds I'd have laughed. When I left Shaolin and was told "If you ever have trouble, call us. You've got family in Shaolin", I nearly ****ing cried. That's brothers.

Ok, that said, Antonio's article is accurate and tells it like it is. But it's only depressing because he left it at that. The Game, man, the Game...

[richard sloan]

my impression of the first read was that he should have let more time pass before he wrote it.

another year and he might write a totally different story.

[Songshan]

Iam sure its feast or famine there at Shaolin. 80 schools in a small village all based on Shaolin's reputation. I can see how some schools and sifus can be a little pushy for students. Their lively hood depends on it. However, I am not up on Chinese law but how is it that some of these schools continue to operate and be open after scams like that? Surely some people reported them to the police.

So what's become of Antonio Graceffo? Does he now have a negative view of Shaolin? Will he ever go back? What is his intention on writing this article?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by UK MONK
Why did they go to insane lengths to get a couple of photos. They were going to beat him up. A kung fu brother that they trained with for months just over some photos.

They are animals

No dude....they are freakin soldiers!!!!!!! Lets not lose perspective here! You have no idea..or maybe little idea of how much and how deep these people committ and sacrifice for what is ultimately selfless. Yes, these are the conditions, no water, no shower, little food, cramped sleeping, and up to 12hours training meditating and study daily...on going, and for some their ENTIRE LIVES! It is very different to life in western civilizations, and most westernerns could never fully comprehend exactly what that is like or what it takes in heart and spirit to deal with **** like that daily AND make it pleasurable, knowing full well that this is life and never expecting "reprieve" yet totally committed to living an extrelemly long life. You use what you've got, and if you haven't got ...well I guess you just don't.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Tak
It would be great to see more of his work in the ezine, although hopefully all the content isn't as depressing.

you sure you dont mean enlightening????

[blooming lotus]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wall
[B]The author was very unorganized, quite prepared to follow pushy indications of strangers, and most of all was doing it really rough and on the cheap.

DUDE............................., you do realize that non chinese speaking foreigners pay two and three tmes as much as locals and unexpected costs could be many times what you expect?
------------------------------------------------
I openly admit that given to my fortunate middle-class western life I could not stand nor deal with such conditions at all, so guess what .... I avoid them. Thus 2 weeks of Shaolin "luxury" rather than months of Shaolin "trauma".

YOU COULD NOT NOT STAND NOR DEAL; WITH MR. IM SO SHAOLIN!?!? WHAT THE HELL PLANET ARE YOU ON??? DO YOU WANT TO LEARN TRADITIONAL SHAOLIN OR DONT YOU????

Common sense goes a long way, and the author didn't display much IMO.

WELL OK THEN

[GeneChing]

... this has been one of my favorite threads of late. When I first read Antonio's article, I felt it touched a nerve. I had already accepted John's article at that time, for publication on the web concurrent with our Shaolin Special - sort of a cross promotion. But after seeing how both Antonio's and John's articles offered up some different and genuine perspectives, they stimulated a sort of dialog, which I hoped would result in a discussion like this on this forum. It's certainly more interesting that the old fake shaolin or shaolin-do threads.

As for Antonio, he's still in CMA. I'll try to get him to post here. Meanwhile, I'd like to pick up on something that John is saying. A lot of people wonder why you'd go through such hell to train. Why can't you just train Shaolin anywhere? Well, you can train Shaolin anywhere. Anywhere. But there's something to be said for the process of training it at Shaolin Temple. It's the hardships. You don't get that as a tourist visiting for a week. You only get that by doing what John or Antonio did. You gotta get down and dirty. Now I'm not saying that this is the only road to Shaolin mastery at all. But it's a significant road, one that anyone of us can take, if we have what it takes. And like you'll glean from both Antonio's and John's stories, it's the razor's edge. You can just as easily get sliced as succeed.

Songshan - that's a good question coming from a cop. Most of these sorts of situations are victimless crimes. As you've seen from the prior comments on this thread, a lot of people would just roll over to the pressure - and this is from people who are sitting at home (or at work ) comfortably reading the forum. That's not one iota of the kind of pressure that person had. No one here even thought of the police. In fact, when John and I encountered that individual, we didn't either. We thought - "dude, you ****ed up" - frankly if CITS hadn't intervened, he probably would have been stuck there. In the end, the money was returned, and that school left with a warning, probably not the first or the last. Those types of schools don't last long at Shaolin though - karma gets them in the end.

[SaMantis]

I like that he wrote it so soon after his experience. It's fresh and you can feel the raw emotions he experienced. It's almost impossible to capture that in-the-moment emotion a whole year later, even the worst parts would come out 'sanitized'.

I don't think I would have fared well in that situation, either. Long-distance hikes I took in Europe sometimes left me too exhausted to think straight. Difference is, there was a tourist office on every corner so I could go in and have a place to stay in 5 minutes.

Being exhausted & hungry & ill dramatically affects how you think & act. Even for very experienced travelers.

[Songshan]

Yes, no doubt this has been one of the interesting threads lately. I must say, regarding the living conditions, that I would be willing to give up all the modern luxury we have for a few weeks to experience Shaolin. I tip my hat for those who not only been there but those who go back time and time again. To train and live as they do there is not only a challenge but you reap the rewards in the end that no money can buy.