Krav Maga

[Kempo Guy]

Sorry,

I should have made myself clear.
PFS - as ewallace states is equal to JKD Concepts - Progressive Fighting systems (Paul Vunak). Here's a link to his website.

SBG - Straight Blast Gym (Matt Thornton). I guess they also fall into the JKD concepts umbrella. You can find out more about them here.

KG

[lkfmdc]

fundamental problem with most "martial arts" approaches, probably Chinese the MOST is that they are "technique driven", ie they expect you to spend time to develop techniques which require fine motor motion and attention to details,

for 99% of the current martial arts population, they will never be able to pull off stuff like that in a high stress, adrenaline rush environment

[SevenStar]

I agree with that, but I don't think that being technique driven is the problem. the problems would probably be:

1. drilling techs that are very complicated and take too much time
2. not drilling the same techs on a regular basis
3. drilling them, but not on a fully resistant opponent

you could train in a manner that is not technique driven and have the same problem in the street if you aren't trained properly. If you train muay thai and don't drill knees on a regular basis, you won't fight with them EVER, because you haven't been programmed to use them.

My judo teacher (I've heard it elsewhere too) says that the worst you do in practice is probably the best you'll do in the street. You want to strive for perfection by drilling hard, sparring, etc. so that your worst is still damn good.

[Kempo Guy]

SevenStar,

I agree with what you are saying. When I say 'technique driven', what I meant was learning a response 'x' to a threat 'y'. This was how I was trained in Kempo for years.

I have nothing against drills, I think it would be impossible to learn martial arts without them. It comes down to how these drills are trained. If they are always prearranged then imho they would be of no use. They need to be done against progressively more resistance in a sparring environment.

I don't want to open up a can of worms here since this topic has been done to death already.

BTW, I think you're Judo coach is a wise man.

KG

[SevenStar]

agreed. That's the way I feel about drilling too. My judo coach is 75 he's had plenty of time to gain wisdom and as old as he is, he can easily toss me like a ragdoll at will

[Budokan]

Like many other martial arts in America krav maga has been watered down and neutered to appeal to a mass audience. If you want the real thing, go to Israel and join a kibbutz.

[Former castleva]

Just to clear possible misunderstanding I´ve heard lots of good stuff about it,mostly about their gun disarms,and maybe weapon disarms,because of simplicity and therefore practicality.
I don´t know a thing how they train in USA but even though conditioning is always important one´s physique should not be a very big concern generally,just my understanding though.

[lkfmdc]

three career military men who served in combat and were DI's all said the same thing regading the "Krav Maga" being taught here

it's weapons disarms are only good for one thing, getting you KILLED.....

[CD Lee]

Real self defense must include things that will not get you put in jail. Reality is that if a guy does a cross arm grab on me, I can instantly kick him in the sack, or strike him in the face hard, prabably breaking his nose, or taking out his front teeth. I mean, that is just not realistic for a lot of real self defence situations. Sure in a life or death yes, but if it is life or death, do you think a front cross arm grab will be the thing he does to me?

Any good solid self defense system should at least allow you to be able to control to some degree the amount of force you use.

I totally agree that trying to drill 'I do A if he does B, I do C if he does D, etc, etc' will get you very confused with the adreanal rush and surprise attack.

I looked at the Kill or Be Killed PDF, and it is awesome. However, you have to be careful with that type of stuff. You cannot just go ridge-handing a guy in the wind-pipe, or severly gouging his eyes. I think you have to careful what you mentally and physically 'drill' yourself to do.

[lkfmdc]

another thing the "martial arts" program in the US usually doesn't address, LEGAL ISSUES....

If I put my OPEN hands up in the air and announce "I don't want any trouble", you have established your personal zone. Now, it is every idiot's American civil liberties right to stand outside that zone and call you a *****, ***got, a hole etc and there isn't a thing you can do about it. BUT if they come within that zone you have the power to use reasonable force to defend yourself. If you knee somone down low in one motion and drop them it is "reasonable" at that point, if you continue to kick them in the head while they are on the ground it is not

[CD Lee]

Ahhh, there is really no telling whether it is reasonable or not. If there are witnesses, then they will report what they see. If you took a martial stance, and as the guy reaches for you, you drove a straight right fist into his mouth, shattering his teeth and breaking his jaw in two places, you will likely lose in court.

And, if you are trained, and you did get the first strike in, with your hips turning and arm rotation, you will certainly bust something up real bad on his face.

If on the other hand as you say, you throw your arms up in a defensive position and as he reaches for you, you block him off his center, and project him away and run, you hopefully get out of the situation and stay out of court.

Obviously there is a great differene between fighting and self defense. Sometimes, you have to turn it into a real fight, but we should be aware of the issues, and what is going on.

I assure you, if you hurt the person seriously or even a little, you will be in court, and subjectivity and perception will prevail. When they find you are a trained martial artist, well more issues will be considered and you look like the bad Kung Fu guy, right or wrong.

[Former castleva]

That "kill or be killed" book I downloaded was awesome as CD Lee said,good stuff.
It actually reminds me of Krav Maga.
Very down-to-earth&somewhat practical.

[Rolling Elbow]

"realism".... on what i have seen of Krav Maga, sure it is high intensity HOWEVER, they are actually missing the "realism" aspect when they punch someone in the head 6 times and expect their balance NOT to have shifted backwards and then proceed to take them down in an arm bar FORWARDS. No concept of real movement and body reaction, TOTAL emphasis on overwhelming someone with strikes. News flash! If you hit someone hard in the head, their head will MOVE. So yes, i am sure it is useful but if they hit a punching bag now and again, they might see allot of their strikes going to waste!

[Rolling Elbow]

CD Lee..

good point, i usually don't engrain any neck techniques that involve snapping or breaking someone's neck. I see when i have them but don't even go through with the rotation or lift in the technique because it is not something i want engrained when i have adrenaline rushing through me like crazy. "kicked my car! now i'll break yer neck!"- not the way to go

I will say though, that when it comes to hitting, I wouldn't hit anyone with any less for "control"reasons. Anyone who lays a hand on you should be dealt with sufficiently so that you do not have to worry about continuously "controlling" them. Just don't stick around afterwards. You have to be an extremely high level practitioner NOT to hurt someone excessively in an altercation. Besides, the harder someone comes and the better you move, the more they end up hurting themselves. They begin running into your body weapons. Tough for them..

[CD Lee]

Rolling Elbow...

Yes I agree. The movement after a real strike is such a huge thing. You are absolutely right. I have seen videos on self defense (can't resist watching the different ideas) using in one case Karate. This one in particular sticks out in my mind. While the moves were overly aggressive, and very devastating, the series of three-four strikes in the technique seemed quite impossible if you acutally landed the first strike properly. It was obvious on this video that no account had been taken as to what would happen to a person if their face was struck violently.

Yes, the head would snap back, and the body would shift backwards. When the series of strikes would be preformed at speed for demonstration, they just looked very wrong. And that was what was wrong. It was not natural movement after the supposed strikes made contact. The person just stood there like a bag, and the karateka could land three more blows.

I don't think an untrained person could successfully land a three-four stike combination on an attacker anyways. I think a trained person is lucky to land a good two punch combination if they land the first blow in the series. And the only reason they might get the second one is because of distance control via FOOTWORK.

BTW, as far as ingraining, I have hesitated to ever ingrain the front of the throat as a striking target. While difficult to hit with a closed fist, it is three times easier, and very probable with a ridge hand or even open hand, uplifting blow.