For Women Only

[PaulH]

Hey ETW,

That's funny. Can I call your mon on this? Ha! Ha! For everyone else I'm truly sorry to intrude this private domain, I couldn't resist the bait.

Regards,

[kj]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I would just like to say that no woman has ever or will ever beat me.

Nice try.
- kj

[Phenix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I would just like to say that no woman has ever or will ever beat me.

Nah Nah...


How about your mom and or the nurse who slap you on your butt when you was born?

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I would just like to say that no woman has ever or will ever beat me.

You know you love it.

[anerlich]

I would just like to say that no woman has ever or will ever beat me.

I've been to that club too. Basically the dominatrix's won't even look at you if you're not wearing leather chaps with the butt cut out over a G-string and one of those leather masks with a zipper for a mouth.

Guess you chose that screen name and the one before for a reason, huh?

Has any woman ever, or will any woman ever, want to TOUCH you with a 6.5 point pole?

Do you actually have a corporeal presence other than as KFO's resident irascible, misanthropic (just added that one to what might become a long list of adjectives) curmudgeon?

[EnterTheWhip]

Guys, this was a perfectly fine thread until you came along and inserted your useless comments and innuendo. So typical of us men to undermine women's issues. At least my comments were relevant to the discussion.

So, to bring it back the subject at hand... how do you (PaulH, Phenix, John Weiland, anerlich) demonstrate respect for or lack therof the training of the females in your class. Do you hold back because they are female? Do you give them the same intention/energy that you give to the males? Do you attempt to overpower the females (usually by means of strength) to ensure that you don't get beat and embarrassed?

[anerlich]

Guys, this was a perfectly fine thread until you came along and inserted your useless comments and innuendo.

LOL, You can't seriously be trying to take some sort of high road after that sexist, self-aggrandizing and inane post at the top of the page. ETW lecturing others on forum ettiquette is surreal. Relevant to the discussion ... crap.

Do you hold back because they are female?

Not because they are female. If I am stronger or more skilled than the person I am working with, I try and work maybe 5% above them. If I'm not, then I do my best.

Do you give them the same intention/energy that you give to the males?

I give every student the level of that stuff that is appropriate to their current level of skill.

"Do you attempt to overpower the females (usually by means of strength) to ensure that you don't get beat and embarrassed?"

I might get beat, I wouldn't get embarassed - at my age I'm only a couple years away from some senior citizen discounts and can use that as an excuse .

Go to a BJJ school with some female purple belts, you will be made to reevaluate your self-opinion.

A name for you to look up - Erin Toughill (sp).

[dragon lady]

Originally posted by anerlich


Not because they are female. If I am stronger or more skilled than the person I am working with, I try and work maybe 5% above them. If I'm not, then I do my best.

I give every student the level of that stuff that is appropriate to their current level of skill.

This is the attitude that women, and I believe ALL students are looking for in their training partners!

[KungFuGrrrl]

I chose WC (in 1996) because it was based on redirection and deflection, and I would not have to absorb brute force.nor do high kicks. (I have many injuries ( healed broken vertabrae, 3 proturding discs, one into the spinal cord), arthritis in spine..(a result of an attack by a male in 1995)........
interestingly, the ortho surgeons said WC (and TCC) has kept me out of a wheelchair! and helped to heal some of my injuries.

re training with mixed class. I feel this is important because If a woman gets into a real life situation, most liKely she will be attacked by a male and therefore should be able to defend herlsef against people of different size and body structure.

Re My feelings : I used to get very nervous working with the guys, but with the patient teaching and encouragement of my Sifu, and Kung Fu brothers I learned to overcome the overwhelming fear of being approached by male students - I sometimes get a little nervous, but it subsides and all ends well!

I would suggest if you have a woman in the class have her talk to potential female students, that is always ecouraging and helped me when I first joined.
Good luck We need more women in WC!!!!!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

I find this post by dragon lady to be absolutely remarkable:

So it has been ingrained within "you" to "not hit a girl"... consider this: I am a small woman who has been training with much larger men for quite some time. These men have not given me any real energies to deal with and have "given" me position instead of making me "earn" it. I now have a complete false sense of security. Now when I see a guy coming at me that is "your" size, I think I can handle it but am wrong. When I end up a head line as "woman found in trunk" you can take partial responsibility for not be a proper partner.

Remarkable for it's brutal, in-your-face, non politically correct...honesty.

That is indeed the dilemma - FOR MEN - when there are women in the class. We HAVE been taught not to hit women!

And so the end result is that most men are walking on egg-shells when they do chi sao, or spar, etc....with women. Because it's a no-win situation: If you hurt a woman - you're a bully and a coward...If they hurt (beat/defeat/score upon) you - you're a laughing stock for the other guys to make fun of. (And trust me ladies...the other guys WILL make fun of the unfortunate fellow - even if it's behind closed doors).

And if you go "easy" on them (ie. - give them unearned position, don't feed them powerful energy, etc.)...some women (like dragon lady) - will complain.

See the problem?

And the solution is.......

I don't know!

So how about it, ladies...enlighten me.

[kj]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
That is indeed the dilemma - FOR MEN - when there are women in the class. We HAVE been taught not to hit women!

And so the end result is that most men are walking on egg-shells when they do chi sao, or spar, etc....with women. Because it's a no-win situation: If you hurt a woman - you're a bully and a coward...If they hurt (beat/defeat/score upon) you - you're a laughing stock for the other guys to make fun of. (And trust me ladies...the other guys WILL make fun of the unfortunate fellow - even if it's behind closed doors).

And if you go "easy" on them (ie. - give them unearned position, don't feed them powerful energy, etc.)...some women (like dragon lady) - will complain.

See the problem?

And the solution is.......

I don't know!

So how about it, ladies...enlighten me.

This question has already been addressed with utter correctness ... by one of the forum gentlemen. Anerlich wrote, and I requote here from Dragon Lady's post ...

"Not because they are female. If I am stronger or more skilled than the person I am working with, I try and work maybe 5% above them. If I'm not, then I do my best.

"I give every student the level of that stuff that is appropriate to their current level of skill."

Naturally, there's a bit of a rub here if one believes that a) any training short of "hard sparring" is useless and of zero benefit, or b) that training at an intensity below one's skill level is a waste of time.

As for the embarrassment of getting hit by a woman, that's an entirely different issue, worthy of introspection by all IMHO.

More than once I have been "guilty" of restraining myself as well, avoiding or taking a lesser opportunity for concern of a poor fellow's apparently fragile ego or the "face" of a school owner. I have also, on occasion, constrained myself in order to mitigate the risk of an emotionally charged retribution aimed at "putting me in my place" or the need to regain "face." <sigh>

Having said that, I have and do work with lots of guys for whom such things are no concern.

Unfortunately selfishness and ego, including seemingly innocuous factors such as self-consciousness, self-perception, and cultural, societal, or business pressures, can be a significant barrier to mutual and unfettered learning. Not to mention the impact of hormones.

When a problem arises with men and women working together, it isn't an issue of gender as much as inidividual issues.

More often than we may like to admit, the real enemy lies within.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

P.S. As to the problem of other guys making fun, the solution to that could be to help educate them through example. Or find new guys to hang with.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Naturally, there's a bit of a rub here if one believes that a) any training short of "hard sparring" is useless and of zero benefit, or b) that training at an intensity below one's skill level is a waste of time." (KJ)


On the contrary, I believe that there is a huge benefit in doing frequent chi sao and light sparring drills that emphasize the "softer" aspects of training (no force-against-force/moving slowly/methodically/relaxed energy/no tension in the muscles/more co-operatively and less competitively, etc.)

The dilemma I described comes when it's time for (and the women in the class want to participate in) a more intense and competitive form of chi sao, sparring, and so on.

Many times I have used (and encouraged my more senior students to use) the 5% extra method that Andrew describes so well...with more junior men and women.

BUT MY FIRST POST ADDRESSED A DIFFERENT ISSUE.

The difficult and...shall we say...delicate...issue of how to handle the situation when it's time for something harder and more competitive.

I can remember a really tough young lady who attended my school about ten years ago. At the time she was about maybe 23-24 years old - and already had about 5 years of Muay Thai and kickboxing experience. She was about 5' 3" and weighed about 125lbs. And she could really punch and kick butt - against men who were much bigger than her (but with less experience).

In time, however, when their technique and wing chun knowledge grew (some of the men in question)...she couldn't beat them anymore. (Their natural size advantage having eventually tipped the scales in their favor). And she was the only woman, at that time...in the advanced sparring class.

She eventually got very upset with me - because I "didn't teach her enough technique" to enable her to triumph over the bigger guys...at least that was her complaint - as unfounded as it was.

She quit the school.

[kj]

KungFuGrrrl,

Thanks for sharing your story. You go, grrrl!

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Naturally, there's a bit of a rub here if one believes that a) any training short of "hard sparring" is useless and of zero benefit, or b) that training at an intensity below one's skill level is a waste of time." (KJ)

On the contrary, I believe that there is a huge benefit in doing frequent chi sao and light sparring drills that emphasize the "softer" aspects of training (no force-against-force/moving slowly/methodically/relaxed energy/no tension in the muscles/more co-operatively and less competitively, etc.)

It's good to get a glimpse of this more balanced perspective, Victor.

The dilemma I described comes when it's time for (and the women in the class want to participate in) a more intense and competitive form of chi sao, sparring, and so on.

Many times I have used (and encouraged my more senior students to use) the 5% extra method that Andrew describes so well...with more junior men and women.

Why wouldn't the less junior men and women be afforded the same learning advantage? Five percent on an iterative and increasing basis is very reasonable with limitless advancement potential. If they cannot perform and sustain at 5%, why will they perform or learn more effectively by being overwhelmed or injured at 10% or 20%? Unless they have an unusual view of themselves and the world, everyone understands that they can be beaten. I don't need to gulp spoilt milk to know what it tastes like; a whiff tells me enough.

BUT MY FIRST POST ADDRESSED A DIFFERENT ISSUE.

The difficult and...shall we say...delicate...issue of how to handle the situation when it's time for something harder and more competitive.

Presuming we are talking about adults, this is a personal decision, no?

I can remember a really tough young lady who attended my school about ten years ago. At the time she was about maybe 23-24 years old - and already had about 5 years of Muay Thai and kickboxing experience. She was about 5' 3" and weighed about 125lbs. And she would really punch and kick butt - against men who were much bigger than her (but with less experience).

In time, however, when their technique and wing chun knowledge grew (some of the men in question)...she couldn't beat them anymore. (Their natural size advantage having eventually tipped the scales in their favor). And she was the only woman, at that time...in the advanced sparring class.

Size, strength, and reach "do" matter, especially when skill is comparable, and even with higher level skills when physical attributes of the "opponent" are dramatic enough. This is mirrored in one of our proverbs: "Within the same school, the one with longer reach has the advantage." Skill can increase indefinitely, yet there is no panacea. Perhaps she didn't realize this, or was too impatient.

She eventually got very upset with me - because I "didn't teach her enough technique" to enable her to triumph over the bigger guys...at least that was her complaint - as unfounded as it was.

She quit the school.

I cannot possibly guess what was true cause of her leaving, since I don't know the parties, scenario, histories, training environment, or other personal and situational complexities.

Having said that, here is some "general" perspective that I can offer, which may or may not have anything to do with the situation described: a) If hard sparring is advocated as the primary learning methodology, if b) the student is told or encouraged that there are no alternative means of learning, and c) if the training methodology is such that one is in fact not continuing to learn and increase in skill and capability, then in that environment, unless there is some other ancillary draw, it seems foolish to me that the person should stay.

Another thing I know, is that not all training environments are equally suited to all people and all learning styles. Being that many of us are adamant about one training methodology over another doesn't change the fact that "one size does not fit all."

Again, there is no way I can know if any of this is in any way relevant for the young woman in question, nor can I know if another training methodology would have enabled her to continue progressing. For all we know she had other responsibilities, got tired of training, had her own ego problem, wanted to avoid someone in class, or one of an infinite number of other possibilities. I hope she managed to find whatever it was that she needed.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo