Shaolin Master Sun Yu Fung

[r.(shaolin)]

NorthernShaolin,

Thank you!
I did not know that Monk Yuan Tang T'an Sun Yu Fung and Ma Lang came from the Bejing area. (I did not know a good number of other
things you point out as well :-)))

I would be most interested in your thoughts about the relationship between Monk Yuan Tang Tan's northern Shaolin and the Shaolin coming from Kuo Yu Chang's lineage? Are there any common sets between the two - such as Tan Tui Shi Er Lu?

Re: Ma Ching Fung's teachers.
From which teacher do you think most of Ma Ching Fung's sets came from?

r.

[NorthernShaolin]

r.

For clarification, SYF was not originally from Peking area.

SYF was born in Lian Wo Village, Ching County, Hepei province. (I estimated this year to be around 1860.) In his village, the most popular CMA was wrestling (shuai chiao) and SYF started to learn this art at the age of 12. Later, he wanted to learn more CMA and traveled to Peking when he was 16 years old. He ended up working as a cleaning boy for the Wei Chen Protection Services which was run by Chang Chan K’uei (Big Saber Chang) who had an open invitation to all CMA to cross sabers with him. This is where SYF learned his saber arts.

SYF and Ma Lang practiced together when Monk Yuan T’ang T’an happen to observed the two young men’s potential and decided to teach both of them BSL Lo Han. SYF later worked for Chen Wei Piao Company where he put to use his Saber and Lo Han arts for a living. A few years later, SYF would open his own escort protection business, Ning Yuan Piao Company where his Saber skills spread to Seven Provences.

Most of Ma’ CMA came from Wong’s lineage. Wong taught almost everything he knew to Ma. Now my SiSuks from Ma’s lineage tell me that Wong was much older than SYF and his Lo Han was the same as SYF’s. SYF did not accept student easily but Ma was accepted so SYF must have recognized that Wong’s Lo Han was the same or very similar to his own. Ma went to SYF to finish or complete what was missing from Wong’s BSL Lo Han curriculum.

Again my Sisuks from Ma’s lineage and including my Sifu, stated that the BSL Lo Han sets are taught after the completion of BSL hand sets.

However when SYF arrived at the Jing Mo school, he did not teach BSL but taught the required 10 standard Jing Mo sets before he would start teaching his own style, BSL Lo Han. (Perhaps he thought the 10 standard Jing Mo sets replaced the 10 BSL hand sets but no one could confirm this for me.) Never did he claim that he knew the 10 BSL sets but also he never talked about himself or what he knew either. It has been documented by his students that late in his life (80 years old) he would perform a drunken set and sometimes Eight Fairy Sword set which surprised his students because he never taught any of his students these particular sets. Also in addition, it is documented that SYF did know KYC and had at one time saved KYC’s life but there is no documentation that SYF ever taught him his BSL Lo Han. To add to the confusion, Ma did not learn his BSL from either Wong or SYF but from KYC. Now when Ma went to learn from SYF, Ma learned the Jing Mo Standard sets. So did Ma feel he had to learn what he originally missed from Wong and learn it from KYC? It appears so because later when Ma taught his curriculum, he would teach BSL before the BSL Lo Han.

To answer your question of what is the majority of Ma's sets came from is difficult to answer. What is confusing with Ma’s curriculum is that he would change it every time he moved to a new country. What he taught in Toi San, China (Plum Blossom, Wu Tang Arts and BSL Lo Han) was changed when he arrived in H.K. (BSL and BSL Lo Han) to Edmonton, Canada (BSL and Wu Shu) to finally Vancouver, Canada (Wu Shu and a little Lo Hon.

As for KYC teaching BSL Lo Han, none of his disciples learn it from him. I only found one document out of dozens of articles about KYC that states KYC learned BSL Lo Han but it did not make any reference from whom. The article leads the reader to assume he learned it from his BSL teacher, Yim Chi Wen. So did KYC learn BSL Lo Han, I do not believe he did. None of my Sisuks in KYC’s lineage stated that he learned BSL Lo Han. According to documentations, KYC left his teacher after learning for 11 years because of a family emergency, not for reasons that he completed his BSL studies. So the question left is: Was BSL Lo Han part of KYC teacher’s curriculum and KYC’s decision to leave because of a family emergency prevented him from learning BSL Lo Han?

Anyway, all I can tell you is based on my years of experience if the two are somehow connected. The concepts and principles between BSL and BSL Lo Han are exactly the same. The sets are both fluid and the techniques composition in both are connected in a seamless matter (not choppy). The flavor between the two is slightly different, because BSL Lo Han has a higher energy factor as one performs the sets.

The only differences that are observable between the two are IMHO the following: the BSL Lo Han techniques are performed in an explosive matter with more jumping and leaping and it contains quicker stepping with rapid changing of stances. Lastly the applications of BSL Lo Han are more offensive, very aggressive in nature and very direct techniques which leads an observer to think the applications are more practical than BSL.

Are any overlaping sets?

Currently no. Even the basic Tan T'ui set is different. KYC taught 10 row while SYF taught the required standard 12 row Jing Mo set. Did SFY know the 10 row Tan T'ui? Do not know. No one witnessed SYF ever practicing any basic sets.

However, this is not to say that there was not shared basic sets between the two in the distance past. One of the issues that I have with BSL is that besides 10 row tan T'ui, there are no basic foundation sets before learning the 10 core BSL sets. According to what I've researched, KYC learned specific basic foundation BSL sets but were not transmitted through his lineage for three reasons. One, most of his students had prior CMA knowledge so he skipped the basic foundation BSL sets. Secondly, he was required by the Kuo Shu government officials to add the Lien Bo set as a basic set to his curriculum. Thirdly, the Kuo Shu required their teachers to quickly teach their core style as soon as possible. So what were the basic Foundation sets of BSL? Because of these historical events mention above, I do not know the answer. If the two do share sets it would be in the basic foundation sets but as you can see I reached a dead end. Those who know the answers have already left to the world beyond communication.

Hope this answers part of your questions.

[r.(shaolin)]

NorthernShaolin,

My gut feeling, based on what little I've seen and know of KYC's Shaolin and SYF's Shaolin, they have much in common with the Shaolin I practice. Recently, during the combined 141st Anniversary and the 33rd National Convention of the Chinese Freemasons in Canada, a number of TCM school did demos. I was interested in seeing that Raymond Wong's Shaolin has a great similarity to my Shaolin. We, and a number of other TCM school here, are exploring the idea of doing a joint demonstration here in Feb. It will be interesting to compare the similarity and differences with more sets being done.
......................................
re: It has been documented by his (SYF's) students that late in his life (80 years old) he would perform a drunken set and sometimes Eight Fairy Sword set.

It would have been great to have seen these. We have sets with both these names.
Ba Xian Jian - Eight Fairy (Immortal) Sword
In our Shaolin drunk-man actually has three bare-hand sets:
1. Ba Xian Xing Yi (Its full name is Ba Xian Xing Yi Da Jui Hang - Eight Drunken Fairy/Immortals Beating Nine Lines)
2. Da Shi Hui (Big Ten Gathering)
3. Zui Ba Xian (Shi San)

.................................................. .....................
re: Are (there) any overlaping sets?

What about characteristic basic techniques i.e.. Stances, characteristic combinations etc?
Did either KYC or SYF practice Qi Mei Tui - 'Stop at eye brow leg/eyebrow level kick" as basic training methods?


re: Currently no. Even the basic Tan T'ui set is different. KYC taught 10 row while SYF taught the required standard 12 row Jing Mo set. Did SFY know the 10 row Tan T'ui? Do not know. No one witnessed SYF ever practicing any basic sets.

Based on information in our tradition, 10 row Tan Tui was not practiced at Shaolin but the 12 row version was.

Thank you NorthernShaolin - good stuff!
r.

[NorthernShaolin]

r.

Did either KYC or SYF practice Qi Mei Tui - 'Stop at eye brow leg/eyebrow level kick" as basic training methods?


Yes we practice this. But I do not know from which lineage it came from.

The demo in February sounds like and winner. Raymond has some very talented students from what little I saw.

[buddhapalm]

Dear R.(Shaolin) and NorthernShaolin,
Sorry for being incommunicado for so long, I have had some major family problems for the last 6 months or so and have not been concentrating on much training, research or communication.

I shall be moving to L.A. for six months to open some business down there, I will be leaving in about a month. But I shall try to get back into the research and training etc.

My trip to Hong Kong and China was wonderful. I spent a week in Mongok, Kowloon and traversed the busy streets looking for masters related to my Dai Sigung Ma Kin Fung. I met a Sifu that knew him called Sifu Lai, he was a Sifu of the Lohan Society and descendant of Sun Yu Fung's teachings. We compared forms and techniques and went over applications for about 4 hours after a wonderful Hong Kong Dim Sum lunch. In their school I performed sections of many of my forms, but Sifu Lai did not recognise them as being the same as what they practiced. I did Er Lang Quan, Wu Song Breaks Chains, Flower Fist, Jin Gang Quan, Dai Pang Quan, Feng Mo Quan and Dai Fut Zhang handsets. I also did Ba Kua Dao, Seven Star Sword, Luk Hop Spear, Kwan Dao and some other stuff but it was not the same. They showed me some handsets two saber sets and a spear set which were excellent and practical. I noticed that all of their hand and saber moves were lightning fast. Their punches were like bullets.

I asked Sifu Lai if he could explain applications of certain movements that our systems shared. He went over each of my movements and taught me a great deal about the purpose of each movement. Their understanding of saber usage was wonderful. I wish I had spent more time with them, but they did not have so much time.

Sifu Lai told me that he watched Ma Kin Fung (school) demonstrate his Lohan style, but it was not the same as what they practiced in their Lohan Society. Perhaps Master Ma's Lohan was curriculum they never learned, or perhaps as you say NorthernShaolin, it may have been from Wong's curriculum.

r.(Shaolin), I would be very interested in knowing which forms were similar to yours from Master Ma's curriculum. Was it the saber sets, stick sets and or handsets.

Its great talking with you all again. I look forward to more. The best way to reach me off the forum is satoridesign@hotmail.com.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[buddhapalm]

Hi r.(shaolin) and Northern Shaolin,
Any further collaboration on the possible similarities/connections of Sun Yu Fungs/Ma Kin Fungs Lohan and r.(shaolin) lineage ?

I would love to hear more about it.

Also was there any demonstration in Canada in February.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Buddhapalm

Good to hear from you!

Ray Wong and I along with a number of other TCM shifu have been working on this demo for sometime. As you can image, getting something like this together is, difficult. Ray and I feel that we need to first put together a federation then do a joint public demo. Its a process, but I believe it will become a reality. A joint demo will more likely happen sometime in Oct. or Nov. In the meantime Danny Ma (Ma Kin Fung's son) and Ray will be putting on a demo this June here in Calgary. Apparently Danny and his students will be in Edmonton for the Canadian National Wushu Team Selection and Open Wushu Competition (http://www.albertawushu.com/05/index.html) so later that week he and Ray Wong's school are planning a demo here in Calgary. When I get the dates I'll let you know. I plan to go. It will be the first time we get to see a better representation of what they do.

We have been asked of do a Dragon Dance for the opening of the Canadian National Wushu Team Selection Competition so I'll be up there as well. I believe some of Ray's students will be entering Traditional Chinese Style section, as will some of my students.

r.

[buddhapalm]

Hi r.(shaolin), its great to be back on the forum and into my training and research again. So much to catch up on.

Please let me know if any demo is planned for Novemberish, I would try my best to finally get up to Canada.

Warmest Regards,

Buddhapalm

[NorthernShaolin]

buddhapalm,

Good to see that your back. Well since we last talked, I met with Ray Wong and asked him a some tough questions concerning the differences in SYF's Lo han lineage; specifically the lineage in H.K. and Ma's lineage since Ma had practiced with the HK lineage in the past. Ray originally learned from the HK lineage first before learning Ma's Lo Han. Well he really could not give me a clear definitive answer as to why different sets are taught today. However, what he told me is something I also heard from my sisuk, that when SYF retired, Hwang Hsiao Hsia changed the curriculum. Ma had already left the school when the change was made. Thus there exist two different curriculums in SYF's Lo Han with Hwang's curriculum being the condensed version. (He took the original 18 Lo Han hand sets down to 10 hand sets). So does that mean we can assume that Ma's Lo Han curriculum is the same as SYF's? Ray states that Danny can get this answer by going thru his father's notes but he just hasn't found the time yet.

I then asked him how did Wong Duk Hing's Lo Han fit in here. Ray said that Wong's Lo Han was the same, if not, then very close to SYF's Lo Han. He stated that Wong was regarded as one generation eariler than SYF. Also according to my Sisuk, the curriculums of both Wong's and Ma's were similar and thus is similar to what Ray mention. Who did Wong learn from? Ray had no answer. I could not find any written document either.

Were you able to make contact with any relatives of Wong's? According to Ray, Wong had a son, named Wei Hon, who ended up in Thailand and a daughter, named Ching Wah, who stayed with Wong. These individuals were never heard from again since the start of Japanese invasion of China.

This is as far as I got.

r.

Wow, that sounds like a big task ahead and a lot of hard work.

I'm sure it will be well worth it and something to be proud of being on the ground floor of what will be a great martial arts organization. All the success in the future.