Shaolin and Wudang's Key of Excellence

[buddhapalm]

Dear Friends,
I was re-reading an old passage from a book by John Blofield. He had met some Taoist sages in the mountains before 1949 and quoted the head priest after witnessing a life and death sword contest:

"The principles of voidness and passivity must be carried over into all affairs. As Lao Tzu says: `He who excells in combat is one who does not let himself be roused`. That the warriors of old flocked to our peacefull hermitages to foster their martial skills is no paradox; they came to learn how to apply the secret of emptyness, how to ensure that the enemy's sword, though aimed at flesh, encounters void, and how to destroy the foe by striking with dispassion. Hatred arouses wrath; wrath breeds excitement; excitement leads to carelessness which, to a warrior, brings death. A master swordsman can slay ten enemies besetting him simultaneously, by virtue of such dispassion that he is able to judge to perfection how to dodge their thrusts. A swordsman or an archers aim is surest when his mind, concentrated on the work in hand, is indifferent to failure or success. Stillness in the heart of movement is the secret of all power".

I had written this passage in my journal and forgot the title of the book, but I will look for it. I have it buried under countless others.

Anyway upon deeper reflection of this quote of a high Taoist priest, I began to think, that perhaps the key to martial excellence within the arcane Shaolin and Wudang Temple systems was not technique alone. But perhaps the spiritual/concentration skills developed alongside the myriad techniques were the formula for the highest attainment. We hear all of the legends and see the movies depicting old tales of monks and hermits vanquishing endless armies of killers, as if sweeping away leaves. Perhaps THE SKILL does not only lie in summoning technique, physical power and perhaps Chi, but also lies in the ability to calm the mind in the midst of impending death.

In Shaolin the path would be Chan/Zen. In Wudang the path would be Wu Wei. Don't both paths aim towards some kind of emtyness, naturalness, calmness and spontanuity. Shaolin and Wudang seem somewhat alike in that sense.

I have never truly understood or believed in the saying "one cannot achieve martial excellence without a good heart". But analyzing what the Taoist priest says above, then it makes sense in a practical way, rather than just a moral way.

Therefore my friends, perhaps to step forward in the field of battle, perhaps we can first step back into the field of emtyness.

Perhaps this is the missing key to the great heights of our predecessors in their mountain paths.

Lastly let me quote the poem by a famous Buddhist monk Bukko. When Bukko was still on the mainland, his temple was raided by fierce Mongol troops. As the soldiers rushed forward with their swords drawn, Bukko looked up calmly and recited this poem:

"In heaven and earth no spot to hide;
Bliss belongs to one who knows that things
are empty and that man too is nothing.
Splendid indeed is the Mongol longsword
Slashing the spring wind like a flash of lightning!"

Not total barbarians, the Mongols were impressed enough by Bukko's composure to leave the priest unharmed.

Just some mad ramblings, after hearing echoes of wisdom from 50 years past and beyond.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[HuangKaiVun]

Michael Jordan still trashtalks endlessly, and he admits to playing better when he's fired up against someone.

Larry Bird would talk to motivate himself and teammates. He led the NBA in trashtalking during his career.

Shaquille O'Neal takes his frustrations out on opponents. Offended at the notion that ****mbe Mutombo was acquired by the Sixers to stop him, he scored about 40 on Mutombo en route to the championship.

Wan Lai Shen was challenged constantly in his career. His answer was to practice harder and harder, refining his art so that nobody could beat him.

The moral is that being "passive" doesn't work for top achievers.

[Arhat of Fury]

Or maybe channeling those frustrations without having it effect your mindset. In other words, intent is there but restlessness is not.

Just some thoughts.

AOF

[buddhapalm]

Hi HuangKaiVun,
I personally would not interpret my post as advocating passiveness. Not in the least. Stillness in the heart of action would not be passiveness, but would be calmness within the whirlwind of destruction and death, the eye of the storm. Striking with dispassion would be striking without compassion or passion. Reflecting the opponents attack like a mirror, leaving no gap for emotion to distract from the task at hand, ie separating the opponent from his head, rupturing the internal organs with internal palm shocking power.

Yes emotion can pump us up to a very high level, but it can also cloud our judgement when overwhelmed in the face of absolute and imminent death. Emotion towards success is one thing, fear of death is another. When facing death the instinct towards survival will dominate, it will nuetralize all other emotions. Can we calmly utilize and co-ordinate our minds, bodies and spirits as one cohesive unit in this situation. Can we use what we have learnt in our practice. I think without a clear mind we will be unco-ordinated and crazed, an easy target when overwhelmed. The passiveness is simply composure of mind in battle.

I believe that the ancient Buddhist and Taoist martial masters understood this and thus their legends are with us to this day.

I am not talking so much about combat with an evenly matched foe, where you are not in a state of terror, but against an insurmountable foe/s where it is all in the mind and spirit.
But how much more easy would it be to handle an equal foe after handling a dozen.

Didnt Wan Lai Sheng practice Ziranmen style (Natural Style). I believe his system was based on Taoist practices, incorporating the theory of Wu Wei or emptyness, naturalness and spontanuity. I do like what you say about practicing harder and harder. This makes absolute sense. The more you practice, the less you remember, the less you remember, the more deadly your skill.....hence emptyness (of thought, fullness of action).

Just my thoughts.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[kungfudork]

buddhapalm,

I am a student of Shr Xing Hao in Texas. I will give you an example of how he explained this same type of philosophy to our adult class one morning. He said the key to winning a fight is to stay completely calm and don't try to outguess your opponent. your mind must be still so you can correctly react to your surroundings. He said the biggest problem people have in a fight is that you get excited and try to guess what your opponent is going to do...will he puch with his left or right, is he going to kick me first, will he try to grab me....this makes your mind run 100 miles per hour. He told us a way to help calm your mind is to think of this: as long as you face your opponent he can only attack from 8 angles( think of straight lines to your body's center) so north/south, east/west, northeast/southwest, northwest/southeast. so once you realize this that makes your options of defense less, then you know your opponent can only attack at the most 2 of those angles at once...two fists or a fist and kick at the same time. Now of course to feel confident in this type of situation doesn't come easy......i'm sure years of training help.

He also told us of an old saying....i guess from times in china when fighting was a life and death situation. If you cannot kill your opponent in 3 moves, then most likely you will lose to your opponent( in this case, your life). so when you attack you do not think of what will i do if he blocks this.....you just do what you have to do and don't think of the win or lose. if you don't kill him then most likely he is more skilled than you because he blocked your best stuff, your only chance is to run away and try to live to fight another day.

Now i understand this concept but i am sure we all agree that martial arts was developed to protect in life/death situations, and i just don't feel that people train now as hard as they did then, because of the gun. back then, if you didn't kill the guy/girl then they would kill you. don't get me wrong, people today do train very hard....i just feel the purpose is different now. i mean if i was worried about dying in a fight, i wouldn't learn lots of forms....i would take a few techniques and spend years mastering them so i could apply them in any situation. i can say for me though, i can't do that, because if i were truelly felt my life was threatened then i would buy a gun and learn to shoot it superbly, so i could use it in any type of situation.

i hope this makes sense, i'm not trying to put anyone down or anything....so i hope this doesn't read disrespectfully!!!!!

respect to all,
kungfud0rk

[buddhapalm]

Hi Kungfud0rk,
Thanks for your reply.

What you and your Sifu say is invaluable.

You mention that in a life and death situation you would prefer a gun. This is true. But yet, imagine drawing your gun on a crazed machete wielding nutcase pumped full of PCP, imagine him charging you at full speed ready to cut you in half, imagine him within 10 feet as you start to aim................

Therefore I say that composure in any kind of battle will determine the survivor. We could be playing chess, writing calligraphy, negotiating business, teaching our children, sparring or in the midst of a life-death battle with a gang of murderers. It is all the same, it will require composure to allow the mind and body to act harmoniously and effectively. Winning is winning in any activity dont you think. I believe the composed mindset is transferrable from one discipline to another.

Perhaps with enough training we could recite a poem, like Bukko did, as Mongols rushed at him swords drawn. If you could do that, any enemy would run.

That reminds me of the story of Kung Ming scaring away Tao Tao's army of 400,000 men with his lute.

Just more thoughts.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Radhnoti]

One of the things that I ended up taking away from Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings" relates to what I think you're talking about. Fighting from "No-thing-ness" or "Void" versus fighting fighting with "Fire".

"When you truly understand the Way, you can take any form that you want to. ... Your "attitude/no-attitude" cannot be stirred except from within."

It seemed to me that part of what he was saying (or the part that I was able to appy) is, "Be ready with emptyness, and when you attack do so with great focused passion."

...I always used to apply this to... ...my tennis game. When my opponent would get emotionally fired up, and I knew he was REALLY working for a point I'd slip into a methodical and dispassionate "persona". More than one player told me that it would crush their spirit when all the emotion/energy they poured into the rally was met methodically and without a RETURN of emotion/energy. I would try to save my "fire" or passion for important points ...especially if I felt my...well...yang energy exceeded theirs at the time.

Great quotes buddhapalm, I'm saving Bukko's poem and John Blofield's insight to my favorite quotes file as soon as I post this. I'm really enjoying what everyone has to say, thanks.

[jun_erh]

Have composure, but don't eliminate the dragon, or spirit. Roger Clemons thinks of his dead mother when he needs a boost on the mound "Emotion is a big part of my game" Emotion allows people to do amazing things. I remember an analogy from some philosphy 101 , basically it was that the chariot and the team of horses are depended on each other. Yin and Yang. I may be saying this wrong, but anger can mess you up or it can be Yin energy, which is good.

[joedoe]

I think the essence of using the void is that in the face of death, you are still able to execute your technique flawlessly. The prospect of death does not affect your ability to fight. You are not thinking about survival, you are focused on perfect technique.

HKV - All those basketballers may have trash-talked, but inside they were probably as calm as can be. What they were trying to do was upset the calm of their opponents.

[buddhapalm]

Good points everyone,
Yes, the trashtalk may have been to uproot the opponents calm. I just thought of another thing, perhaps the trashtalking pumped themselves up to such a hyped frenzy that they no longer felt intimidated by the opponents, therefore they could focus on perfect technique because they were no longer intimidated or nervous.

The problem with being in a state of frenzy is that, while it is good for a devastating attack, it leaves one off balance when meeting empty void.

Everything has its place in the Ultimate Strategy. I still think that the calm player will prevail in his defense, simply because the angry attacker will eventually be off balance and leave themselves open for a tactical strike.

Basketball is different from combat I believe, because the basket hoop is stationary, so an aggressive attack would work very well. But if the basket could move around and suddenly appear behind Michael Jordan's back as he slam dunked, then he would have problems. Imagine a hoop that was as evasive as a 90 year old Ba Gua master circling behind the players as they tried to score. I think it all depends on what type of target is involved in the strategy. Then again the target may be the opponent team player.

There is a saying, something like: Attack like a tiger, defend like a virgin maiden, move like the wind, stand firm as a mountain.

So long as one can transform effortlessly and seamlessly from one extreme to another, then one will have great skill. The difficulty is maintaining balance while transforming from tiger-like attacks to virgin-maiden-like (void) defense.

Isn't this what we aim for my friends. The grand ultimate Tai Chi, yin and yang integrated as one powerfull entity. Tiger and Maiden.

I hope to learn more from all your viewpoints.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[richard sloan]

the idea of no mind, yet aware...

Reminds me of one time I was recently playing Halo. All of a sudden, I realized I was playing Halo, I had played through four or five checkpoints, inlcuding the great battle, flawlessly with no deaths, and I still had full health. Of course, as soon as I realized this, I died. Horribly.

Sometimes this happens to me in class.

Of course, on the flip side you have the beserkers, but having blacked out once in a fight, where I knew what was going on but was at the same time sort of divorced from it, what I can guess would be called going beserk, maybe it's the same thing manifested differently on the outside.

[HuangKaiVun]

"Calm" and "passive" are NOT THE SAME.

"Calm" is to maintain one's equilibrium. "Passive" is to let the opponent come at you instead of going on the offensive.


I have a student who was attacked in a life-or-death situation.

To beat that opponent, who was over a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier, she called on her internal rage and turned into an ANIMAL. None of the emotionless stuff would've saved her in that situation.

Every military man I've met has been able to channel that internal rage into action. When faced in killing situations, they utilize this rage to drive themselves into action Afterwards, the aftermath is severe (hence debriefing). But the alternative is DEATH.

Basketball is not all that different from combat. The basket doesn't move, but the people standing in Michael Jordan's way do. For Jordan, anger is what he needs to overcome certain opponents.

Magic Johnson got destroyed by Jordan in a scrimmage for trashtalking. At the time, Jordan's squad was down 14-2. After Jordan heard the talk from Magic, he turned his rage on Magic's squad and walked away with the victory. Nothing "passive" about SEIZING a victory.

By the way, who's this REAL LIFE baguazhang master at age 90 can move faster than a guy 1/3 his age?

We need to deal with real life people when talking about real life kung fu.

[joedoe]

Ferocity/fierceness and anger are also two different things.

[buddhapalm]

My friend,
Please do not confuse me with certain others who live in an unreal fantasy.

As for myself, if I did not learn how to maintain my composure in the past, then I would not be fortunate enough to be enjoying philosophical debates now. So it has now become "my" personal style.

I enjoy philosophy only in as much as it applies to my reality, growth and survival. No hocus pocus, strickly business.

My late Sifu was as close as I could find to a 90 year old Ba Gua master. Actually he did not practice Ba Gua, but his combat style was as close as it comes to that style, perhaps a hybrid appearing as a cross between Ba Gua, Hsing Yi and Wing Chun. He would evade quickly and nimbly as a fox, but attack mercilessly and cruely. At 72 he would greet challengers by making them cough blood. His middle name was rage, but he evaded like a cool wind appearing from behind with an iron palm.

There are many great masters, some have stored there energy with training and herbs and make fools of us 35 year olds.

There are many unqualified masters as we know who control and blind students with the hocus pocus and spear bending tricks.

As my Sifu lectured me "Good steel never melts, no matter how hot the fire".."Jun Gum Bat Pah Hung Lo For". So perhaps we can find a real good master at any age. Just not one that wastes his energy in his youth.

So I agree with you only 50%, that rage is appropriate in attack, channelled with enough composure to see clearly any traps around. But I disagree 50% in the realm of defense, I think rage will cloud the eyes into missing incoming attacks or openings.

But then again it depends on ones circumstances, as you said, your student survived by utilizing rage. But the point that I am trying to make with this thread is that calmness developed in the traditions of Buddhism and Taoism may have been the key to excellence with the Shaolin and Wudang monks. For their systems depend upon harmonizing mind, heart, breath, chi, hands and feet, alongside deft footwork and total concentration. All of which would be maximized by maintaining a clear empty mind. Excessive anger or fear would cloud that harmony, and split ones effectiveness and spirit in half like a giant axe.

The ancient strategist Tai Kung (before Sun Tzu) listed about 8 deficiencies of a general. One of them was excessive courage. His answer was that a general without calmness and courage would be lured into the enemy's deathtrap or make fatal mistakes. Three Kingdom's Crazy Jiang Fei was always reprimanded by strategist Kung Ming for making wild mistakes in commanding the army.

You are correct about military men, they must be single minded in their ferociousness, but I think the commanding general must observe Tai Kungs rule. He must observe all conditions of defense and attack.

You are right though about basketball and difficult opponents. I never was any good at basketball, and never will be. Five foot six white boys cant jump ;-))))

Great story about Magic Johnson. I guess it shows, he who laughs, laughs last.

Cheers my friends

Buddhapalm
San Francisco

[Lao_Peng_You]

This seems like a fun if not disjointed discussion, my $.02:

Questions and commentsfor BuddhaPalm

"voidness" (or the Dao), and passivity (Yin), seem like only part of the equation. Did the author or myself miss something?
Right! I got it, one who is outwardly Yang, or "excells in combat", is inwardly Yin, or "not easily roused". Hmmm...balance, sounds good so far. On second thought maybe I don't have it...maybe someone who excells in combat holds Yin and Yang externally and internally in equal parts? What happens when one adds force on a Neutral *thing*? By "dispassion", does this passage mean neither positive nor negative?

I think your on to something when you mention spiritual development, but how, what and why do you acheive this? What do you mean concerning "highest attainment", "physical power", "skill", "technique" and "Chi"?

In the same vein, what is the difference between Chan and Wu Wei?

I think you're on to something in taking a look at "a good heart" as being something different than your first perception of it. Could you elaborate on this?

Why are you so conflicted about the subject of spirituality and the martial? How can one "step back into emptyness" when "engaged in battle"

That poem is rich. It seems to answer a lot of questions.

To Huang:

Can you define Yang without Yin? Can you be internally Yin and externally Yang, or vis-versa?
I think we agree that it is important for a martial person, amongst others, to forge an iron will. If a person needs a particular stimulus, such as competition to forge his will, what happens when that stimulus is gone?
-Michael Jordan retires this year.
When I think of someone who can express their martial prowess on an instinctual level, such as your woman friend, it does not surprise me that she could defend herself from someone who assualted her with rage. Life or death will bring this out. The five elements give us this insight! What do yo think?
-Basketball is not life or death.
I also think that rage is emotional weakness (or imbalance), having a solid emotional base is calmness, not passivity. Again, your thoughts?
Can I gain your perspective on "real life Kung Fu"? Could you elaborate, please?