Gung Lik Kuen and Jeet Kuen

[GLW]

That is the problem with English from Chinese...

Jeet is spelled one way but there are a couple of characters and a couple of variations in pronunciation.

One is Jeet (Mandarin - Jie) - intercept
One is Jeet (Mandarin...can't spell it...doh) - fast ....

So, if you don't see the character or are told explicitly, you end up with different names....

There is one well known teacher (Chinese too) that has mistranslated one of the routines they teach - even with the Chinese characters because they translated each character instead of realizing that two of the characters go together and make the meaning different....

[mantis108]

Hi Crimson Pheonix,

<<<Mantis 108, I agree with you...but at the same time I disagree...why?>>>

Great, let's have a discussion about that.

<<<Because presenting all the applications of a form would mean you'd have to write a whole book just for a single form. Would such books sell? definitely no, or with so small an audience that it would mean sure bankrupcy to the publisher.>>>

Well not if the applications are done in the sake of doing applications. That means a wide array of apps are possible. But the fact that forms are moves that comes together under one theme means there is a lesson to be had despite the Da Ti Na Shuai possibilities. If the material are presented in a generally recognizable and agreeable manner, I don't see why such a book won't be sought after. It is a matter of origanizing and presenting the information in a interesting and inspiring way.

<<<And even with that, there would still be people saying "yeah, but this and that application are missing, yet in my school blah blah", because everyone has their own ideas (based on their schools, experiences, whatever) of what a "good" apllication is...good refferred to what? >>>

Well the universality of the apps is a good start. Then style specific apps in comparsion is a bonus. Surely a form such as Gongliquan is almost universal. A good application/combo should have a good entry, main technique, and a follow up. This would not be hard to gauge with experience. I think I am basically Jaded by the one punch one kill applications that are flooding the market.

<<<It's fidelity to the move in the form? It's usage of the principle? It's combat effectiveness (as dull as this concept is?)?? What you consider a good application, another man will consider less important than another variant...who is right? who is wrong?
See, it's not that easy to present a form and application and impossible to satisfy everyone...>>>

I agree that it is not easy but for the sake of Kung Fu, the master should not just stop trying. BTW, if the master can not present his/her material in its entirety and comprehensiveness and to bring the beholder to understand the message, should he/she be qualified as a master? I am not critical of any particular master but in general I personally am against half explained stuff. Also form has a flow which can be cross checked by 2 men drills and forms (not that you have to do it that way). There is no reason that a central theme and/or principle of techniques can not be found within a form. There is always water to make the flour stick together as a dough. Otherwise such material should be regarded as lines or roads not a form.

<<<If man to man instruction and oral transmission from sifu to student is so emphasized in martial arts, it's because the guys realized ages ago that no written document, however complex it could be, will catch the essence of teaching.>>>

Good point but it will be lean towards elitisim in the schools and Kung Fu community in general. That is not to the best interest of the Kung Fu community at large.

<<<Publishers cannot financially sell books about one form with 1000s of applications...too small an audience...so they put many forms, and included some basic applications...of course, by doing so, they have to chose...and we all know everybody can't be pleased (even what you consider the most beautiful woman on earth could be an ugly one to someone across the globe).
Still, it is better than having no books at all...>>>

I will have to respectfull disagree since a lot of the application base books and video such as BJJ, Judo, etc... sells pretty well. So I think a lot of the Kung Fu "masters" are really behind the times. That is just my own believes.

Best regards

Mantis108

[Crimson Phoenix]

I agree with all you said (except some little points I will develop under)...still, I believe that it is not easy to do: if you were to present da,ti,na applications for a single tech, and along with that a two-man drill that as you excellently plointed out can be devised from the techs, it would make at least like 5-6 pics of applications for a SINGLE move...the number of pages can increase REAL fast. If you skip the history, some people will complain, if you skip the training methods, some people will complain, and so on and so on...I believe, and it's just MHO, that it is impossible to make a perfect gong fu book...even the best book out there (about which many people will disagree when it's time to vote, trust me) will lack something...this missing part might be crucial to you, and not to the next guy...

OK, what I disagreed mostly with was about elitism...WE HAVE TO BE ELITIST...it's WAR arts we're talking about...not anybody can learn to fight for real (let's forget about P.C.).
You see how many fighters of other styles scoff at us and kung fu already?? If we are not pointing towards a ceratin kind of elitism it is going to be even worse...good gong fu was never and should never be a mass product (don't get me wrong, there are schools with many students still producing very high gong fu). Real gong fu, even in modern, big schools, is demanding. Even though it has spread in ways the elders never imagined thanks to modern communication, it remains an elistist art deep inside. You have to suffer...sweat...sometimes bleed. Dedicate a lot of your time and money, give up a part of your social life even...you can't acquire true gong fu by being a sybarite and bumming around, or unwilling to invest anything...in the end, good gong fu is elistis. To me, books and videos are wonderful tools to sensibilize the masses, and preserve some of the art. But eventually you'll have to learn from the master, it's all that counts. The book, IMHO, are there to draw persons to the art, persons that have what it takes but might never have heard of the art or a talented master if it weren't for the books...
Books are like boats...once you are across the river, you don't need the boat anymore, however useful it was during the cruise...I would be very disapointed if a master was to give all his tricks in a book...I don't even think it's possible, since the tricks usually need man to man teaching...sure, he can mention it in a book, but it's quite useless...to me, a good master need to keep some full clips...unloading everything in a book would be a bad idea for gong fu. To me, gong fu is something you have to deserve...gong fu doesn't come to you, you have to come to gong fu...

Then there's the history research...it doesn't improve your fighting at all, but God how sweet a pastime that is

Thanks for your time, and sorry for the lenghty blah blah

[5thBrother]

is this the form in Yang jwing-ming.... book on long fist?

thanks

[David Jamieson]

5b-

I believe that book by YJM covers the set Lien Bo Chuan.

cheers

[NorthernShaolin]

As for Jeet Kuen (Jiequan), it is the opposit dynamic of Gongliquan. It is mainly a kicking set. In a way, they compliment each other well althought they are most likely not from the same system.

Mantis108 [/B][/QUOTE]

Your right Mantis108.
Jeet Kuen is from the Mi Tsung Style. The original name of this set is called Flying Swallow Fist and it builds the legs. Gongliquan or Kung Lic Kuen develops upper body strength. I forget the roots of this set but it is not Mi Tsung.

[mantis108]

Hi NorthShaolin,

Great to hear from you. Thank you for the wonderful info. I really appreciate it. Would you share more insight about Jie Quan with us? Thank you once again.

5th Brother,

I think the book covers both Lien Bu and Gongliquan plus a few more forms.

Best regards,

Mantis108

[Day Tong]

Northern Shaolin,

I had also heard that Gung Lik Kuen & Jeet Kuen were from a Northern system called, "Little River system".

[norther practitioner]

Gong Li chuan...

there are a bunch of references in the forums if you do a search........

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...=gong+li+chuan

is one thread....

also gong li quan...


here is the search results

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...der=descending

[Leimeng]

~ So, who are the best and worst commercial school and video sources of these two schools?

peace

[dc_jowga]

in my school, we offer gune lic, jeet kune, tan tui and bat bo. there is another form, an eagle claw form which i learned before my sifu died, which me and my si hing (we are the only ones who learn it) forgot the name.

my sifu, chin yuk din (dean chin) was a student of lau man fat before he learned from chan man cheung (jow ga), so we have eagle claw in our system. the northern form gives us a good balance to our southern style form.