Tai Chi Chuan and it's translation.

[Fu-Pow]

Is the state of Wuji in Taiji the same as Zen in the Buddhist tradition? Essentially a state of "no mind" where things are not differentiated, not even the individual (I) from the rest of the universe (not I). I'm reading a book about Zen meditation and the author describes stuff that sounds a whole lot like Taiji standing meditation. For example, he says that after months of practice his center of gravity shifted down to his lower abdomen . The more I study Taiji it seems to be a derivative of Zen meditation, mixed with Taoist cosmology and terminology borrowed from tradtitional chinese medicine. Asian culture is so huge vast and "incestuous" its like a big ball of thread, just find a loose thread and start pulling on it.....

[SSgungfu]

Well Chan Buddhism is Taoism and Zen mixed up in its raw form. Thats how all the Chinese stuff seems to be. All related in some way (all CMA have the belief of being rooted, chi, etc.)

[Nexus]

Fu-Pow,

Great question. Zen and Wuji are the same, however Zen meditation and Wuji meditation are not the same on the surface.

Zen or Wuji mind are not attained through meditation either, don't be led into the belief that they are. They are states of being, and are not necessarily brought about by meditating.

Zen is a way of perceiving things. It is sometimes called 'Direct Seeing' meaning seeing Directly into the nature of things. Zen or Wuji mind could be thought of as Pure awareness.

In Zen, one is to realize that they are already enlightened and that there is no enlightenment to achieve. In that sense, it seems nonsense to think that one would ever attain enlightenment by meditating. On the other side of the coin, meditation is useful in its own right for some, however it should not be confused with No-mind or Zen. Meditation is an action, Wuji is nothingness, void of action, just being.

Here is an example: I could spend 20 years learning every meditation known to taoist and zen literature and teachings, and still never really go anywhere. I may believe I have made some progress or made growth, but really those concepts of growth and progress are only in my mind. Because taoism teaches us that the ultimate goal is actually the beginners mind or the uncarved block, we realize that thinking that we have become something whether it is an advanced meditator, a taichi master, a yogi or whatever, is to carve our block and lose our original essence.

I recommend reading "An Introduction to Zen Buddhism" by D.T. Suzuki - Here is a website with a text version:

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/...zen_intro.html

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks, I can tell by your answer that I'm on to something here. Where it goes from here who knows...or rather who doesn't know.

[YiLiJingLei]

Hi, Nexus,
For the sake of literal translation, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "Zen" Japanese for "meditation", and "Chan" Mandarin for "meditation"? 'Meditation' meaning quiet contemplation? Just trying to cut to the "nuts & bolts" direct meaning. In Sanskrit it is dhyana, right? The idea is to realize truth, essential, simple truth, to grasp what seems intangible, isn't it?
So, Zen, or Chan, (meditation) is kind of, the conscious act of letting go of thinking of this or that (polarity) to just "be"; isn't that what Wuji is? Being without extremity? So, Zen/Chan is a method, or Road ("Tao") to percieve or realize Wuji/non-extremity/void?
Or something like that. Maybe I'm just clapping myself with one hand...hmm, what does that sound like......heehee

[Repulsive Monkey]

Grand Ultimate Pole - Fist.

[Nexus]

Originally posted by YiLiJingLei
Hi, Nexus,
For the sake of literal translation, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "Zen" Japanese for "meditation", and "Chan" Mandarin for "meditation"? 'Meditation' meaning quiet contemplation? Just trying to cut to the "nuts & bolts" direct meaning. In Sanskrit it is dhyana, right? The idea is to realize truth, essential, simple truth, to grasp what seems intangible, isn't it?
So, Zen, or Chan, (meditation) is kind of, the conscious act of letting go of thinking of this or that (polarity) to just "be"; isn't that what Wuji is? Being without extremity? So, Zen/Chan is a method, or Road ("Tao") to percieve or realize Wuji/non-extremity/void?
Or something like that. Maybe I'm just clapping myself with one hand...hmm, what does that sound like......heehee

YiLiJingLei,

You have the concept well understood. Zen means meditation in some translations, although it does not mean the "formal" meditation most people think of.

As I said, it means Direct Seeing of reality or seeing the simple truth as you called it. We can say for instance that as the "here and now" is all that exists, Zen would be meditating on the here and now.

Fu-Pow,

I would agree that your questions are definetely pointing at something you are looking towards understanding. I have seen countless questions asked by you on this forum that show a honest display of what is called "Beginners Mind" or open-mindedness. This is the mind that one should keep as a treasure, as it will allow for you to learn without hindrance because you are open to all possibilities and do not limit yourself by egotistical tendencies. In the t'ai chi classes I have taught and participated in, often peoples thoughts of "what a good question would be" keep them from asking questions they want answered. They worry over what others will think or are afraid of what answers will be given if they ask. There is a great quote that says, "Judge a man by his questions and not by his answers."

You will find what you are looking for, all you must do is look. As it has been said, when you see the finger pointing at the moon, do not confuse the finger for the moon.

Take care.

[Fu-Pow]

Not at the moon, just in it's general direction.

[Nexus]

And what direction is that?

[Fu-Pow]

Up.

[Nexus]

Don't forget to look where you are walking.

[Repulsive Monkey]

How can you say that Chan is Taoism and Zen mixed up when Chan came before Zen? Chan Buddhism was Chinese whereas the when it traversed over to Japan it became named Zen. I think you ought to read up on all three because your comments were a touch generalised. Taoism has a distinctive character as does Zen. It would be easy to tell two practitioners of each apart.

[Fu-Pow]

I thought that Ch'an (Zen) buddhism was a mix of Mahayana Buddhism and Taoism as well as Confucianism. It was eventually transported to Japan. What is interesting to me about Taiji is that the Buddhist influence seems to be left out of the history. Why is this? Is it because Buddhism is considered "foreign" in the Culture?

[Walter Joyce]

The point you make about "foreign to the culture" is not without merit. There are well reasoned writings that advance that same notion as the main differnce between labeling a martial art as internal (i.e. derived from chinese teachings, as in taoism) and "external" (Derived from outside sources, think shaolin buddhist influenced).
Walter
p.s. I'll find the link if you like, but last time I did that I was accused of being superficial. lol

[Fu-Pow]

Walter-

I've heard the internal/external, taoist/buddhist connection before. I'd never given it much merit, but the more I read about Zen (buddhist) meditation I can't help but see the connections between Taiji and Buddhism.