Pledge Of Hypocrisy?

[Serpent]

I read today that in the US a court ruling is likely to ban students from reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in school as it breaches the First Amendment. The main point of contention being the bit where it says “One nation under God”, thereby not separating church and state.

I agree with this as forcing kids of a non-Christian or Atheist point of view to recite that is insulting. The oath would be just the same and just as effective with the words “under God” removed. “One nation, indivisible…” is a lot better to my mind. In fact, the words “under God” were apparently only added in 1954 anyway.

Often, from an outside point of view, Americans seem as fundamentally fanatic about Christianity as the Islamic fundamentalists that they are currently at war with. (Yeah, right. Terrorists. Sorry.)

So, I was just wondering, what do you all think of it? Wouldn’t it be a lot better to simply remove those two words and have a pledge that every American could say with honesty and belief?

[ewallace]

I think it is taking PCness too far. However, I do not think that anyone should be forced to say "under God". Those who wish to can just skip it.

[Black Jack]

As an atheist I am ALL for it. It's been a long time coming-though it will not last-but its the FIRST step. I HATED saying that part of the pledge when I was a wee-sh!t.

This is NOT about NOT saying the freakin pledge, its about taking out the words "under god", words that were not in the original verse intell 1954!!

Those words were only added in 1954 to make us the white hat when compared to the state endorsed Atheistic Russia at the time. Other slogans like in God We Trust were also put in around this period I believe.

The original Pledge carried us through the crucibels of 2 great wars, the great depression, all sorts of dark and troubled times, it was written by a minister who KNEW we needed a separation of church and state......period.......end of sentance.

I am shocked and sickened by George Bush's reaction to this landmark advent-though his fathers was worse in his heyday-about how we are a Christian country and are values are derived from God.

MAKES ME SICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's no wonder I don't like fundamental Christians. They endorse a default state religon-a rewriten and bogus American Hisotry-not to mention there retarded fictional viewpoints-and worse yet I have to pay taxes to let some poor *****es kid who she shat out of her dirty and uneducated arse go to a cushy private religous school because public school is not good enough.

I did not vote for that dumb****-I will not vote for that dumb****-maybe next time the guy with the most votes can win the election.

[David Jamieson]

Anybody have a copy of the original pledge?

Was it Senator McCarthy that put the "god" into everything?

peace

[Royal Dragon]

The original is printed somewhere in the following conversation

http://www.officer.com/cgi-bin/ubb/u...c&f=1&t=003895

As well as the changes that were made to it along the line, and when they were made.

[guohuen]

The original "pledge" was written by a socialist.

[halfling]

Original - "I pledge allegiance to "my flag" (changed in 1923 to "the flag of the United States of America") and to the Republic for which it stands - One nation ("under God" added in 1954) indivisible - with liberty and justice for all." I remember saying that everyday before elementary school. I loved it. I will never stop saying it.

[wushu chik]

Well, I just heard today that one of the southern states(??) just passed the law that the children in all schools can start their day off with a prayer after the pledge, something along those lines. So, either way, they are getting it in there one way or another.

~Wen~

[Radhnoti]

RD, here's the link I found in that message board conversation you pointed us to, just in case no one else wants to plow through so much.

http://www.vineyard.net/vineyard/history/pledge.htm

Kung Lek, here's a breakdown from the site:

"The original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.'

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. "

Also, Black Jack...the majority ruling was written up (according to RD's message board folks) by a conservative judge appointed by Nixon.
Clinton would have already looked at the polls (apparently 90% of those answering on polls are ****ed about this) and started doing everything in his power to change the ruling. Not sure what Gore would have done...though one would assume he'd follow in Bill's footsteps...but Clinton would've wore a dress and dyed his hair red if the polls said he should.
Bush isn't perfect, I disagree with several things he's done. However, I do think he is the lesser of two "evils". Just my opinion.

Oh yeah, my opinion on the ruling. I'd remove the words...or replace them with something less specific. That worked fine up until the mid-50's. Yes, the majority of the country is of a different opinion, but many laws in our country are made to protect the minority from the majority. I think that's what this ruling is doing...until the Supreme Court overrules them...which wouldn't surprise me.

[Black Jack]

Kung Lek,

Yeah it was McCarthy.

I am all for freedom of religon, all for people saying the pledge with the words "under god" inserted into it, if they chose to add those words, but NOT endorsed in a public school or government setting.

Its BS and its unconstitutional.......period.

Bush is good for war issues, I did not like the Gore either, in fact I could not stand either one of them, but now I am starting to wonder if we picked, well lets take that back we didn't pick, the different guy for the job.

Bush is very...very faith based and strong willed enough to do something about his deep religous belief's. Just today he said that he will only attend to appoint Federal Judges who understand that our countries rights came from God, that itself is assine and unconstitutional.

He is all for public faith based programs, prayer in schools, my money to non-secular education, the banning of abortion, in a word thought control based on a mythological playground of stories who he believes to be true. His own father, the old retard, said that Atheists are should not be CONSIDERED human beings!!!

I am more Republican than Democrat, though I am really neither, I don't know what I am to tell you the truth, I wish I knew what camp I fit in, though it does not matter, these two *****es will be up there slapping each other around forever.

Just incase somebody can tell me,'

1. For small government.
2. Pro-Firearm
3. Pro-Choice/For Abortion
4. Anti-Public Forced Religon in any and all forms.
5. Pro-Military/Military Science
6. Pro-Science and Discovery/i.e. Pro Clonning
7. Anti-Welfare
8. Anti-Illegal Alien
9. Pro-Farmer
10. Pro-Death Penality/Death to forced entry/serial rapists/serial child molestors.
11. Pro-Strip Clubs

There is more but that is a jist, what does that fall into?

[Mokujin]

this could get messy...

While I'm an independent conservative, I didn't see a problem with "under God" in the pledge. If you don't like it, don't say it. Never once did I feel that the school was endorsing Christianity as THE STATE RELIGION.

How could I? Evolution is taught as fact (even though there are five or more different theories on it), condoms are taught as safe sex and hardly any REAL American history is taught. I could make a list of all the failed social-experiements Public school's have done on children behind the parent's backs!

I'm even more shocked that I have to pay taxes to support a failed school system, but I'm glad I will have to option to CHOOSE if I want my kid to attend such a failure or go to a private school. Screw that! I'll just home school my kids!

I guess the Consititutional is UN-Consititutional because it mentions a divine Creator. Yet, belief in this devine Creator inspired such a profound document that founded one of the best countries in the world!

Later I learned that the battle hymn for the revolution including praising Jesus (shudder!) and many governmental procedings started out with a prayer to the Man upstairs! Gasp!

We have freedom of religion, Black Jack. While you may not believe in God, you shouldn't deny man's spiritual side (not saying that you do).

BTW - Last time I checked all the news stories, George W. Bush did win the most votes. Of course if you start counting specs that could have been votes for Gore, then MAYBE Gore got the most votes (but that's a big MAYBE!).

"Pro Clonning" - I don't know how many sheep it took to get to Dolly- the one that looked good for TV. How many human lives will be snuffed out behind closed-doors until a decent clone is produced? So far, all cloned animals have had genetic defects. Reminds me of that scene in that terrible movie, Aliens 3.

Food for thought.

Peace!
Mokujin

[Black Jack]

It makes the Chrisitian religon the countries religon by default. It has no place in a public forum of that nature, people try to pretend the word god means a universal truth, but lets be honest on what they are really talking about here, anybody who watched the reaction of congress, the presidents address, the majority of sheeple who make up the public on tv, and school teachers to the ruling of this court, then you know WHAT universal truth they are really talking about.

Have ALL the spiritual side of the pie you want, I support that, just keep it out of where our forefathers never intended it go, a point made clear in the begining of the pledge, written by a socialist minister in the late 1800's who understood that we needed a united pledge and not one based on any man's faith.

Anyone who opens there eyes to what happened today can see the hypocrisy, see it, they can freakin smell it.

[Mokujin]

You've got to admit, though, that it's hard to separate a country or region from its religious founding roots.

Israel, India, Asia...

Each one of these identifies with religious roots, as does America. This shouldn't be a surprise.

Yes, Congress and the President are quite good at making a spectacle of themselves- nothing new here. They'll always be politicians.

Oh well, I'm tired and gotta get some shut-eye.

Like that dead guy said, I might not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it!

Peace!
Mokujin

[Lice]

Mokujin,

Uhh... Gore got the most votes(barely), he just didn't get enough electoral votes. So, more people voted for Gore, but he lost anyways. Maybe that's what you meant, or maybe you meant just in the state of Florida.

[wufupaul]

All I can say is..good riddance. I haven't recited the pledge of allegience since I was in elementary school, I have too many objections to it, the phrase "under god" just being one of them. About 12 or 13 years ago, the principal of my junior high told me to stand during it's recital; but that didn't sway me, I told him that he couldn't force me to do it, I'd call the aclu, haha. I do think that it is a good idea to have it removed; it will help to make people of all beliefs more comfortable with it. Now, instead of it favoring theists, it could be more easily adopted by polytheists, atheists, and agnostics, as well. Or, we could just permanently get rid of it and let people decide on their own how they choose to show their patriotism,