Do you think this is right?...............

[Merryprankster]

Stacey--

You picked the wrong person to discuss philosophy as a "crutch," with.

First, my faith is as agnostic as it gets, so I'm not even comforted by the idea of YES or NO absolutes when it comes to a higher power. That means I deal with humanity strictly on its own.

Secondly, you yourself brought philosophers and religious figures to bear--that's not what Jesus, Buddha, or Lao Tze would say, as I recall.

Third, let me explain WHY your point of view is cowardice borne of fear of accountability: You wrote

No one has a black heart, people just get scared. They trust in 10,000 illusions as their false gods...like the belief that you are in some way better than Neal, or that you are seperate from him. These are all lies based on fear.

This point of view, at its base level, EXCUSES people for their actions. It blames their EVIL actions on:

1. fear (No one has a black heart, people just get scared.)
2. faith or misinterpretation of a higher power (...trust in 10000 illusions as their false gods)
3. human inseperability (...like the belief that you are...better...or that you are seperate from him.)

It does this in the following manner:

point 1--fear makes us all do things sometimes that we are not proud of or that we regret. Because of this, a person is held less responsible than they would be otherwise. Bollocks. I judge a man by his actions in his most trying moments, and his treatment of others in day to day life. For neal, his trying moments were resisting the urge to molest children. He has been tried by his own willpower and found wanting.

point 2--this one is too easy. When you attribute your actions to following the will of the "Lord," combined with fear and desperation, you get suicide bombers. Despite their despondancy, does that JUSTIFY their actions? The answer is no.

point 3--by insisting that we are all somehow morally equivalent, the implication is that we should judge Neal less harshly because we are all capable of the same thing. As individuals, however, we are all morally distinct. I am not Neal's moral equivalent, and neither are you. Sorry. We're BETTER than that.

While I'm at it, why don't I address another of the little cliches you tossed out there "What you hate in him, you hate in yourselves."

If that's true, then we hate avarice, and evil, and selfishness, and casual disregard for others, destruction (as opposed to gradual loss) of a child's innocence, and a host of other human impulses, that, when acted upon, rip the fabric of society apart and destroy human happiness--for both the object and the subject.

If we hate them, it's because we see that humanity can choose better things for itself than molesting children.

[Royal Dragon]

VERY well said!!!!!

[vingtsunstudent]

edited for language.

[KC Elbows]

Well, not to be the voice of reason on this, but here's my take on this(not that anyone asked):

-pedophiles have an obvious mental disorder, and should be treated, just as others with mental disorders should have access to treatment.

-Pedophilia has a high enough recidivism(is that a word?) to assume that, presently, we do not know a therapy that works to cure them.

-Children deserve protection from predators of all types at all costs.

-Individuals who have served their sentences deserve the right to take part in society as free people again, and should be able to resume their constitutional rights when their time is served.

HOWEVER:

-Seeing as modern therapy is insufficient to counsel the pedophile, in order to protect innocent children at this time, there is no other clear choice other than to suspend certain rights of those convicted of pedophilia in a way that prevents their contact with children until such a day that adequate therapy is created, tested, and proven consistently successful in correcting their mental problems.

There. What's so hard about sitting on the fence?

In this case, seeing as how the individual in question was convicted, and is required to announce his status, he should definitely not be given free reign on forums that children may frequent.

To those who don't see the danger on a specifically martial forum, remember that members on some forums can PM each other without other member's knowledge. Also, many threads involve members geographically close to each other meeting(Austin members-time to feed is an example, though I doubt Neal would show for THAT lunch).

Slightly off-topic, but it always annoys me when people say that pedophiles/serial killers/serial rapists, etc., are NOT insane. In the legal sense, they are not, but insanity is not a legal term alone. Anyone who wants to relate to children sexually, or rape, or kill people and keep their toenails, is definitely NOT sane.

That's my rant for the day. Be thankful that I didn't rhyme it.

[Asia]

Abel and the rest,


As far as Ffab stand on NOT banning "TulsaWingChun" I can understand. As strange is at it may seem it is actually very difficult to verify who the person posting is. Seriously can anyone of you prove who I am through the internet? NO you can't and I dare you to try. The only way you will find any REAL info on me is if I give out that info. I do it quite a bit the time (Ralek anyone!). Unless you are willing to do so REAL indepth searching it is VERY difficult to verify the person posting on a forum. Now I am NOT defending 'TulsaWingChun' (far from it), remember I am the one who picked up the gauntlet he threw down at CK and I am VERY willing to crush him given the oppurtunity. But Ffab I will defend because it is HIS site and I think he runs it quite well, and I can voice my opinion just like anyone else. If you look at 'TulsaWingChun's 'Cry for help thread' you see ffab handled that quite well with both pple. Recently "TulsaWingChun" hasn't done anything that warrants being banned by the sites rules so I can see him NOT being banned. "TulsaWingChun" had told me that he was MARRIED in his emails if he IS Neal then I truly feel for his family. He has never called himself Neal in his emails to me.

[Royal Dragon]

So when are you guys going to go to Cyberkwoon and sound off?

That's where it all started (This time anyway)

Here's the link to my conversation

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/modul...23&forum=13&17

See how it started all innocent, and then just blew up??
It was "Suposed" to be about a promo for my forum, NOT a discussion about Neal Cameron, but now that it is, I'd like to see some more with a commonsense view posting to that topic on cyberkwoon.

Thanks guys,

RD

[KC Elbows]

Asia,
To an extent, I agree with you. However, the forum's responsibilities may not end with their own rules. However, not being familiar with the entire situation, I won't go into it in any depth, as I may not be understanding what is actually taking place over there clearly.

However, if the mods know that it is Neal, then they are entirely within their rights to alert all forum members of his status, and would open themselves to severe penalties if something did occur that began on their forum.

[Royal Dragon]

Fabb admited to it o the forum

[Asia]

RD,

I am see how you thread got hijacked but "smogmax" does make a good point. You and Abel say that Neal Cameron "molested" a child, a very BAD crime, but the only link I have seen to him is about "exposing himself" Now I did go snooping and got more particualrs to Jospeh Neal Cameron. The kidnapping charges were dismissed pending "further investigation" so by law we can't say he did this because he hasn't been charged. (Correct me if I am wrong)


KC Eblows,


Although I agree that if a sex offender is on the forum and it is proven then, in good tatse, the memebers should be alerted. But show me one INTERNATIONAL law that says this HAS to be done. Ffab called TWC "Neal" before but he is not 100% who the guy is. But I will leave that to Ffab.

[Royal Dragon]

But knowing how the law works in this country, and after reading the news paper article, it's pretty clear what has happened.

Also, when one pulls thier "Weapon" one is prepared to use it. At best we are looking at a circumstantial definition here. The nature of the creature remains.

[David Jamieson]

it is impossible to know exactly who is on the other end of a public forum unless they truthfully admit their identity.

I can go to a library, set up an email account with hotmail or netscape or yahoo et al and then use that e-mail address to make an account for my self at a public forum and then i can post whatever i want.

so, regardless of our opinions on the matter and how we as individuals see the human condition, this forum is governed in its content by YOU the posters here, by the rules of use and of course by the admins and mods for the forums at this site. This structure is pretty much how it goes in all places like this.

I can assure you that the person in question is not the only predator lurking on the internet.

I can also assure you that swearing like a blue streak all over this forum will not contribute a single lick to the stamping out of deviancy from the norm in any society in any timeline. it also has little to do with Kung fu beyond the examination of moral character of one who claims to practice martial arts.

A singular fixation on the person in question and their character in my own opinion is a waste of time.

Caveat Emptor when dealing with others in cyberspace

peace

[JasBourne]

Imagine for a moment:

You are an eight-year-old girl, about 4' 2", around 70 lbs. You answer the door at your house, and a 5'10', 245 pound man 20 years older than you drags you out, puts a knife to your throat, tells you be quiet or he will hurt you, and tries to shove "Mr. Happy" into your mouth. You scream in absolute terror, and the rapist loses his nerve and makes a run for it. You are scared and feel dirty. Later, strangers ask you to tell them what happened, over and over again. Some of them ask questions in a way that makes it seem like maybe it was your fault ("Did you say no? Why not? Did you struggle? Why not?"). Your parents and other grownups act funny around you.

Eventually, you find yourself in a room full of strangers, all looking right at you, and they ask you to tell them all in detail about what happened yet again. One person hammers away at you about whether you are absolutely positively certain the man who hurt you is the guy sitting at the table. You don't want to look at the man, he scares you, all of this scares you very badly. You don't know what to think anymore, what the right answer is. You agree that maybe you aren't sure who your attacker is. The perpetrator walks, free to offend again.

This is why we now allow children to testify on tape instead of open court. The trauma of open proceedings is almost always overwhelming to small children, damaging them further, and making their testimony unreliable. We're all so bloody worried about Neal Cameron's rights. We seem less concerned about that child, and the other children he damaged. He took away their rights. We have no cure for child molesters in this society. Statistics prove beyond any shadow of doubt that by the time a molester is apprehended, they have been offending for some time previous, and if released, will offend again. Statistics also show that the level of offense will escalate. From flashing, to kidnap/rape, to murder? At what point do we put a "danger" sign around the necks of these animals?

All humans fall into subconscious patterns of communication. It is not beyond reason to be able to ascertain, after a period of continual communication, someone's identity online to a fairly accurate degree, especially if such a person has been previously identified. Someone mentioned karma. A manifestation of karma is being shunned by society for your misdeeds. I shun garbage like Cameron, and will point to him and others like him, saying "there he is" wherever he shows himself, online or off.

[KC Elbows]

"I can go to a library, set up an email account with hotmail or netscape or yahoo et al and then use that e-mail address to make an account for my self at a public forum and then i can post whatever i want."

[KC Elbows]

Asia,
I agree, identity is a fuzzy thing here, and law is relative on the internet. HOWEVER, in this case, the person in question is in the US, and must abide by its laws, regardless of the laws of any other surfer's nation.

However, if RD or Abel were able(hehehe) to confirm that NC was not supposed to be on the internet, then they should not only contact the authorities, but it should be any moderator's responsibility to stop such contact. However, in ffab's case, this would just mean that this one poster would be banned, and would come back as a new member under another IP address, at which point ffab would not even know who it was.

[Badger]

.....& I am one of the goodguys.