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At the same time Crawling Tiger, you can't expect western persons to whole-heartedly adopt asian concepts and customs. Kickboxing is far more reflective of the west than Funakoshi's karate was. It's a completely different mindset, and cultures leave their mark on the art, just as the art leaves its mark on the person.
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"I'm not sure people would say "shaolin-do sucks," but they probably would say "shaolin do isn't REAL kung fu," and then the real kung-fu practicioner who received their ass-stomping would lick their wounds and retreat to their kwoon, and practice...secure in the knowledge that they practice REAL kung-fu, rather than learning about HOW they got their ass handed to them so they don't have it happen again."
That would be a HUGE mistake, I wouldn't like to believe that CMA would do this but they would.
:( :(
"It happens all over though. A national Judo once stepped off the mat, fresh off a finals victory won by ippon, only to hear somebody say "he has no judo.""
Stuff like this bothers me, comments like these are usually made by insecure people though. Why does the martial arts have so many haters?
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net
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1. I studied a type of shorin ryu karate for a year +, and our sensei (shihan actually) always stressed the importance of our lineage. This will be the only answer I make that doesn't correspond with Budokan's.
2. Pretty much from what I've seen. Minor modifications and you'll fit in fine.
3. Our stances were high, except for a conditioning kata.
4. My instructor emphasized "pressure point" type fighting, HEAVY conditioning and lots of heavy sparring.
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What I meant with that comment was alot of people try to do some kind of reverse evolution. When styles are passed from generation to generation they are supposed to become more refined. By back tracking and trying to guess what the style was originally you could be regressing instead of progressing. I also mean people should be in the present instead of trying to relive the past.
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net
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Ap Oweyn sent me an e-mail, and I think he's right on this:
It happens because people have invested a lot of time and money and a lot of themselves into the MA they've chosen... especially if they've studied it for awhile... I don't care if you have a black belt from the worst McDojo in the world, you took some time to do it.
It's a defensive response... nobody wants to believe that what they spent all that time practicing might not have the answers... ESPECIALLY when they've been told it HAS all the answers. So they fall back on "well, that's not REAL kung-fu."
I personally believe this is an advantage of the western way of thinking. There is a greater tendency for a western mind to question tradition than that of a far eastern mind. This is neither good nor bad, it's just the way it is. Confucian philosophy was more rigid than the dialectic adopted in the west and that changes the outlook on EVERYTHING. And while vietnamese culture is different than chinese, is different than Korean, Confucian thought had an influence on them all due to trade and cultural exchange.
Take note... what offended the CMA community about Bruce Lee's "classical mess," concept was not just the idea that CMA might not have as much martial value as suggested. A great deal of that offense was from the fact that he bucked tradition. He questioned the way it had always been done.
Traditional doesn't mean better, but many people treat it as if it does. It doesn't mean "worse," either, it just means "traditional."
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The other thing is "forms collectors", these types are the same as "lineage groupies".
To have a lineage is quite honourable and stems from the cultural modality of filial piety which predominates in the asian cultures but not here in the west.
Most of us could not trace our family trees past our great grandparents whereas in asian cultures you find that quite routinely the whole family is acutely aware of who the first member of their family is and where whos great great great granfather's sister married whom and so on.
This flows over into the lineage questions concerning Martial arts which is also a cultural ingrainment in asian cultures but not in the west.
when we adopt these practices in the west, we take them in their entirety into our hearts but for us as westerners we have a tendency to be lacking in the areas of filial piety because it is quite alien to our culture and has been so outside the nobility for all time in the western cultures.
This does not mean in any way shape or form that a westerner cannot bear a style from an asian lineage, nor does it mean that westerners cannot use the arts as they were intended.
In fact, many of the asian martial arts have survived and maintained and gained huge popularity because of their practice in the west and the interest that westerners have had for them.
As a culture, the westerners absorb and accept much more from outside than almost any other culture on the planet. This is quite apparent. I mean, how many of you guys on this forum are of strictly chinese heritage? I am guessing it is the smaller percentage of the whole.
Most of the guys I learned martial arts with from Korean to Japanese to Chinese were westerners with only a sprinkling of asian people in the classes.
I think that many of the masters who opened their schools with the right mindfulness and goal to teach from their hearts knew that if not for the further dissemination of the arts into the outside cultures these arts simply would have difficulty surviving.
so, again I reiterate, Lineage does have importance in context to the methods of training supplied, but have little to do with each individuals gained results in the arts. I've seen plenty of non-asians performing Kung Fu both in fights and in forms and outstripping their asian counterparts in both cases.
That's the reality of the martial arts belonging to the world and to those who would diligently practice them.
Keep the arts away from people who are not of the same family or culture and your art will die.
True masters do not look at your name or your skin colour to decide whether you get to learn or not, they decide upon your character and eagerness and willingness to put in the hard training to do it.
peace
Kung Lek
Martial Arts Links
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Ah yes... the forms collectors.
I punch the wind and kick the air! FEAR ME!
Kung Lek... we've spent a great deal of time agreeing on this thread... did somebody put something in our drinks? :)
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Well I blow wind and defile the air, FEAR MY GUARD
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> At the same time Crawling Tiger, you can't expect western persons to whole-heartedly adopt asian concepts and customs. Kickboxing is far more reflective of the west than Funakoshi's karate was. It's a completely different mindset, and cultures leave their mark on the art, just as the art leaves its mark on the person. [/quote]
If you want to learn a traditional Asian art though, then by definition you can be expected to adopt Asian concepts and customs.
While I agree that your lineage does not automatically mean that you are a superior fighter, the lineage is important in recognizing the foundations of the art. In doing so, it helps to understand the art itself.
cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi
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1. In CMA people tend to think that lineage is the most important thing and that if your lineage is good than your individual practice will be better than that of someone with a not so clear line. Do Karate practitioners think like this to?
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ive noticed generally karate practitioners dont think like this but the difference in lineage in karate is far greater than difference in lineage of kung fu.
reason being modern karate was generally ""founded"" by funakoshi you could say about 100 odd years ago (this is a wrong explanation but it will suffice for my example)
If you take wado ryu style the head head was hironori otsuka
if you take kyokushinkai it was mas oyama
if you take goju ryu i believe it was higaonna (i could be wrong here again) or gogen yamauchi.
these people generally died only 30 or 40 years ago so the roots of these martial arts are 1 generation away. So tracing a kosher lineage can be done if you are dedicated, I could go and learn from one of their top students nowadays. however look at kung fu , there are 4000000,0000000 practitioners who all claim their grandfather is the sole carrier of the style , and the roots are 5-10 generations away , not 1 generation so the deeper back the martial art is traced to the more is lost.
I have heard so many things about who is the most kosher tai ji player nowadays im sick of all of this cr@p and the truth is just when i tohught someone like chen xiaowang was the guy to look up to , i learn from somenone that there are chen players in mongolia which are better than in actual chenjiagou village. And that there is a lost chen style chin na that is actually unknown from chenjiagou but it exists in mongolia.
2. Is most Karate interchangable? Can a practitioner of Shotokan switch to another style with no problems as far as principles?
yes and no think of it as switching between types of tai ji , sun style to wu style large frame to small frame etc etc . same style different principles but at the same time same principle different style.
some karate is very soft whereas others is very hard.
3. Is there any emphasis on leaning low stances like in some kungfu or are the stances higher?
generally a good practitioner of traditional not sport karate will have the same main stances as gong fu, horse stance cat stance bow and arrow stance , some do it high some do it low.
4. What is the most important aspect of Karate fighting?
depends on stlye , but as budokan said , one punch should have the power to kill a block should have the power to break bones. however this is as shallow as likening tai ji to a martial art that is for health.
they have all the same principles as we have in kung fu only suited to them in different ways.
in essence the only difference between kf and karate is that karate has less variety , i usually liken it to the body mechanics of hung gar with the internal of hsing yi
This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound
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The only reason I care about lineage is the fact that it was tradition in most high level styles to only pass the full knowledge to select disciples or family members. By tracing the lineage you can see who learned what, and that gives you an idea of how much you can learn. If you want to learn an entire system you would be better off finding someone who is a lineage holder rather than someone who learned some public forms. The person who teaches the public forms can most likely teach you how to fight, but your skills will be limited. Although if you train with a lineage holder you won't automatically be a high level practitioner but the potential is usually greater there
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I work with a couple national organizations, the biggest reason I would worry about lineage is just if the guy who is teaching me created the style in 30 days with his buddies.
I have met a couple of these, they go from 2nd to 10th overnight. They take part of one form and combine it with another, no real reason just to say they made a new style.
Then to help there are all kinds of people running around who will sell you a certificate that says you are a "Soke" for a fee.
So when someone tells you they are a young "master" or created their own style, "Buyer Beware".
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"Then to help there are all kinds of people running around who will sell you a certificate that says you are a "Soke" for a fee."
I'm not naming styles or practitioners to avoid flames and trouble, but I've heard stories about well known CMA masters doing the same thing, not using "soke" of course though.
"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair
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"One punch one kill" comes from the Japanese phrase, "One encounter, one chance" which is probably a more encompassing philosophy for a martial artists.
I agree with the other karateka except on number 4, which I believe changes with ryu and level.
Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.
The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
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We've come long way.
I think it's more maturity thing, years ago if you were not Oriental you cannot learn and Oriental art.
My lineage is who I am. thats what makes me different?
My father can beat up your father.
Comeon!
If people feel that insecure about what they can do. Then it's not worth it. In my opinion.
Just because I have a black belt means so very little, if I have to live up to this immature world we live in.
If I know I am good. Isn't that be enough? If I work hard enough and strive to achieve my goals. Why do I need to impress others?
After all isn't that, self-discipline.
C.A.G.
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