TCMA in MMA

[RonH]

I look at it this way, why train to learn dozens(or even more) of kicks, blocks, punches, stances, etc? If you get into a fight, the human mind just cannot process that much info that quickly.

Of course it can. Do you realize just how many cells there are in the human body? There are trillions upon trillions of cells. I've seen some that estimate it as high as 100 trillion. All those cells need constant regulation all the time. This is all done by the subconscious mind. This regulation is done by parallel processing and the interconnectivity of the nervous system. Compared to that, dozens of moves is nothing. It is possible to use your subconscious in learning the moves. First off, it helps to see the underlying anatomical movements shared by each of those moves. After that, it requires meditation. Controlling your thoughts, so you can quiet them enough to hear the subconscious feelings and thoughts each cell of your body is sending to the brain via the nervous system. Somtimes these messages aree symbolic and other times, it's literal. You just have to take the time to figure out what each one is. They won't always be the same.

The subconscious mind is designed to be subservient to the conscious mind, but it requires reprogramming to get it to where you want it to be. And the capacity to do that is why the subconscious is subservient. Take getting over a fear, say heights. For some people, the will of their conscious mind is strong enough that, after repeatedly getting up high, they get used to it and they stop reacting negatively in an involuntary way. For some, it takes other methods, but it's still the conscious mind overriding the subconscious by repeatedly going over the same thing to reprogram it. The same thing happens when you learn a move good enough that it happens on reflex. That, too, is an example of the conscious mind reprogramming the subconscious.

This level of self-control helps to reign in the involuntary actions one might normally expect from excited situation, so they remain just as calm, as if they just had a good night's sleep. After this, you stop trying to force your conscious mind to remember the moves and allow your subconscious to remember it. The reason why they say the brain can hold a wealth of information is the redundency of the memory creations, using different parts of the brain. One memory is not just in one part, but is duplicated in numerous sections.

But, this is why I said in another thread this was a reason why you don't see a lot of artists, particularly internalists, in MMAs. They're too busy perfecting their own skills and mental discipline much of the time to compete. Also, after getting rid of subconscious programming that's a hinderence to both their lifestyle and their fighting skills, a lot of what drives and reinforces the ego goes away because they found the causes for such actions, understand why they are that way and have dealt with it, which allows them to move on because that particular drive no longer exists for them. It has literally vanished. It goes back to the idea of it not being important that other people see you can do something, that what matters most is that you know you can do it, which is taught to a lot of kids and teenagers, as they're growing up.

It's why BJJ is so effective; they have just a few basic positions, and the first goal is to attain the best one possible. Then you either go for a sub or improve position. Once you get a dominant position and establish a base, you go for the sub or the ground and pound. It's the same thing everytime! That's the beauty of it, it's simple. Your mind does not have to process through a multitude of blocks, punches, etc. It just has to think of a few positions, and then submissions.
Boxing and Muay Thai are similar, but they are stand up arts. Both just have a few strikes to learn, you just get better at knowing which one is the best at the given time. You don't have dozens of strikes from dozens of stances to process through in a fight.

After a while, when you look at the underlying similarities between the moves of different styles or even if one styles has lots and lots of different combos of moves, they really simplify into a far fewer number to your brain.

As for your quote above, I guess you must have a pretty good MMA record huh? Or you must have trained some good MMA fighters. hmmm...

I've trained against MMA people before. I've trained with grapplers and wrestlers. But, it still primarily comes down to mental discipline and self-analysis. There is a lot of psychotherapy involved to root out potential hinderences.

[unkokusai]

Of course it can. Do you realize just how many cells there are in the human body? There are trillions upon trillions of cells. I've seen some that estimate it as high as 100 trillion. All those cells need constant regulation all the time. This is all done by the subconscious mind. .

Oh brother, here we go...

[1bad65]

Oh brother, here we go...

Sadly, that about sums it up.

For someone who seems to know EVERY answer, I'm shocked that Ron is not a world champion level fighter, or at least the trainer of them.

[Lucas]

I dont know about EVERY answer.

but you cannot discount everything he's saying.

on one level or another, he is hitting A mark.

of course IMO its not always going to be so cut and dry.

in the years ive studied martial arts the thing ive noticed above all else is that MA is very individualistic.

there is sooo much room for variance between people that we can only speak on subjects like this from one particular vantage point, to an extent anyhow.

for some people memorizing and utilizing a large degree of material may seem easy, and is assimilated without spending overly too much time.

his very brother may be the exact opposite.

ive experienced learning a technique several times faster than people many years my senior in an art new to me.

how do we explain things like this?

perhaps i was just a natural at that one thing i was learning and he wasnt. maybe past experience came into play. maybe my brain works very differently.

Of course we can look and lump things into the Majority of responses/abilities/etc. but we always have to remember there will always be exceptions on both sides fo the fence.

some people will talk from the view of a certain extreme, often times because that is the experience they have.

Now, this is not me saying anyone is good, or bad, at anything.

its just an element that is always in play no matter what we do in life.

i like to look at things from every angle, as much as possible.

[RonH]

Sadly, that about sums it up.

For someone who seems to know EVERY answer, I'm shocked that Ron is not a world champion level fighter, or at least the trainer of them.

Not every answer. Just the ones I've responded to. There is much I don't know.

So, then, if you really think I don't know what I'm talking about, prove me wrong.

1) Prove that there aren't trillions of cells in the human body, allowing for some differences between people based on height, weight, density, etc. for an exact figure for each person.
2) Prove that the brain doesn't work by parallel processing and memories are not stored in multiple sections of the brain.
3) Prove that for some, repeated elevations to heights above ground level can help eliminate a fear of heights.
4) Prove that psychotherapy can't help people. That all those people that actually have been helped by therapy are just people that have been scammed. All those people that go to couples counseling, family therapy. People that have had horrid things done to them and they go to therapy to help work through their issues by identifying what is going on inside of them and working through those thoughts and feelings to be better people.
5) Prove that people have never shown a marked decrease in their reactions to stimuli, like keeping their cool in hostile situations and not panicking like a chiken with it's head cut off or just yelling and screaming.
6) Prove that you can think just as clearly when you're whacked out of your gord when you're high on adrenaline and fear, as you are when you're calm and at peace and happy.
7) Prove that no child has ever been taught that it's better they know they can do something than trying to get other people to see they can do it.
8) Prove that there are no underlying anatomical similarities in how moves are done between different styles. Prove a punch is not a punch when done in at least 2 different styles. Prove that a kick is not a kick when done in at least 2 different styles.

Providing a counterpoint to any of these 8 would be a good start. If I'm really talking out of both sides of my mouth, countering any of these 8 should be effortless for you. I'll be happy with you countering just one of them.

[RonH]

I dont know about EVERY answer.

but you cannot discount everything he's saying.

on one level or another, he is hitting A mark.

These are people that have a problem with anything I say just because I have my particular spiritual beliefs. They'll look at that and then, if they don't believe in what I say about those particular beliefs, that must mean I can't speak intelligently on any other subject. So, this isn't surprising.

of course IMO its not always going to be so cut and dry.

In my experience, if you want it to be cut and dry, it mostly can. It's just every so often, that occassional nuiance that's a sticking point.

in the years ive studied martial arts the thing ive noticed above all else is that MA is very individualistic.

there is sooo much room for variance between people that we can only speak on subjects like this from one particular vantage point, to an extent anyhow.

I agree. But, for some, they just can't accept that what doesn't work for them can work for someone else.

for some people memorizing and utilizing a large degree of material may seem easy, and is assimilated without spending overly too much time.

his very brother may be the exact opposite.

ive experienced learning a technique several times faster than people many years my senior in an art new to me.

My brother and I are pretty much the same on speed of assimilating information. For me, smaller amounts from a wider range of subjects is easier. For him, he can assimilate the same amount of material as I can, but can do it for a single subject. However, I have a leg up on him because I focus a lot more on the interconnectivity of different subjects, which has let me learn more than he has. With fighting, I also am a better natural dancer. The fluidity of dancing and being able to maintain a rythim and quickly alter that rythim, when stripped of its dance context and placed into a fighting one, has helped to let me excell even further than a lot of people normally would. It would have taken many many years longer to get to where I am in taijiquan than most others. I was like a sponge for the cirriculum. After learning my first form, I was able to instinctively figure out all the nuianced details and crap to raise the level of proficiency skill more and more at a much faster pace 95% of the time.

[brianK]

Ron, you're not claiming to be a taiji genius, now are you? Re: The trillions of cells; sure we have many cells, but in fighting things tend to get streamlined. Regardless of style, simple and efficient techniques tend to be most reliable.

I really think you're offbase when you talk about IMA guys being too busy "perfecting" their skills to sport fight. Iron sharpens iron, and fighting against top competitive fighters is a great way to perfect-and test- one's skills.
A short list of IMA guys, living and deceased, who believe(d) in testing their skills: Su Dong Chen, Li Tai Liang, Tim Cartmell, Wang Shu Jin, William CC Chen, Dan Docherty, Chen Fake, Feng Zhiqiang, Luo De Xiu, Akuzawa Minoru, Mike Patterson, etc., etc, so on and so forth. Too busy perfecting skills to cross hands with "low level" fighters like Couture, Fedor, et al is a lame excuse.

Brian

[RonH]

Ron, you're not claiming to be a taiji genius, now are you?

You can be a genius and know taijiquan. I have a wealth of knowledge and experience when it comes to taijiquan and related fields. So what? Someone has to. Not everyone must be stuck in an eternal 'I only this tiny bit of it' state where their knowledge and experience is confined to a small series of topics.

But, the problem that keeps coming up is a sever lack of anything close to a substantial counterargument to what I've said of late. The only one that's been able to from start to finish has been RD'S Alias -1a. He didn't try to turn the discussion into a pi$$ing match, unlike several others who don't do anything more than try to score appearance points these days when they reply to me. As if that changes the substance of their arguments, and lack there of, at all.

Re: The trillions of cells; sure we have many cells, but in fighting things tend to get streamlined. Regardless of style, simple and efficient techniques tend to be most reliable.

That will always and only be true, as long as you keep thinking it is so. This is why I said meditation is the next thing to do to bring your skills up to the next level.

I really think you're offbase when you talk about IMA guys being too busy "perfecting" their skills to sport fight. Iron sharpens iron, and fighting against top competitive fighters is a great way to perfect-and test- one's skills.
A short list of IMA guys, living and deceased, who believe(d) in testing their skills: Su Dong Chen, Li Tai Liang, Tim Cartmell, Wang Shu Jin, William CC Chen, Dan Docherty, Chen Fake, Feng Zhiqiang, Luo De Xiu, Akuzawa Minoru, Mike Patterson, etc., etc, so on and so forth. Too busy perfecting skills to cross hands with "low level" fighters like Couture, Fedor, et al is a lame excuse.

No, I'm saying most don't care one way or the other because it isn't important to them to go around trying to get title and trophy after title and trophy. I'm not saying MMA people have low skills and that's why you don't see it that much. More value is placed on perfecting themselves and their craft. But, there are some that do wish that there are more IMA people in sports fighting, so they try to rally people to the same feelings.

And, with the same thinking as iron sharpens iron...when you're trying to perfect yourself and deal with thoughts and feelings that you have, so that you can surpass those hinderences, as an avenue to become a better fighter, you aren't gonna step into an actual ring for that.

[unkokusai]

but you cannot discount everything he's saying. .

Yes we can. He's a headcase, nothing more.

[unkokusai]

You can be a genius and know taijiquan. I have a wealth of knowledge and experience when it comes to taijiquan and related fields. So what? Someone has to. .

As I was saying...

[cjurakpt]

There are trillions upon trillions of cells. I've seen some that estimate it as high as 100 trillion. All those cells need constant regulation all the time. This is all done by the subconscious mind. This regulation is done by parallel processing and the interconnectivity of the nervous system.

cell regulation is a complex, multi-factorial process involving but not limited to mechanical, chemical, hormonal and genetic factors (so the nervous system is really only one piece of a much larger puzzle); on the flip side, the term "subconscious" is a term coined by Freud to describe the unconscious mind, and is essentially a quallitative term used by psychologists as a model to try to explain certain aspects of human behavior; now, certainly there is a relationship between physiological / cell function and emotional / psychological state, that has been clearly demonstrated objectively; but to state that the subconscious is what is regulating cells is at best an oversimplification, and at worst simply not true - if this were so, it would require a precise definition of what the "subconscious" is (simply saying anthing that the conscious mind is not aware of doesn't really cut it) and to describe the mechanisms by which it directly or indirectly influences the various means by which cell regulation occurs; as far as parallel processing, in physiology it refers specifically to the ability of the brain to simultaneously breakdown and process component pieces of complx incoming stimulii, such as in vision where it separates things like shape and color, compares them to stored memory and then puts it back together to "tell" you what you are seeing - this really doesn't describe what is happenening with cell regulation

Compared to that, dozens of moves is nothing. It is possible to use your subconscious in learning the moves. First off, it helps to see the underlying anatomical movements shared by each of those moves. After that, it requires meditation. Controlling your thoughts, so you can quiet them enough to hear the subconscious feelings and thoughts each cell of your body is sending to the brain via the nervous system. Somtimes these messages aree symbolic and other times, it's literal. You just have to take the time to figure out what each one is. They won't always be the same.

not really: controlling thought requires thought, and so is actually not quieting of thought - it's just replacing one type of thought - whatever thoughts you are trying to control and quiet - with another type - the thought of controlling and quieting; and therefore, this is not meditation, which is the "activity" of seeing things such as they are - neither encouraging nor quelling, but rather being aware without judgement of the rising and falling of thought; this is the idea of "stopping and seeing", which is the basis of Ch'an (which means "suchness"); in meditation, all the so-called "messages" your cells are alledgedly sending to your brain are simply more manifestations of thought, to be neither desired nor rejected; coming to a place of true stillness, one sees into ones true nature without the conditioned mind judging what one observes

But, this is why I said in another thread this was a reason why you don't see a lot of artists, particularly internalists, in MMAs. They're too busy perfecting their own skills and mental discipline much of the time to compete.

that's one heck of a generalization and can not be proven - the best you could say is that of the IMA people you have spoken to directly, this is the case; it also is biased, implying that competition is not a viable means of perfecting ones skills in IMA, and I know plenty of skilled IMA folks that would heartly disagree with you

anyway, these are just my opinions, giving others an alternate perspective on the matter

[cjurakpt]

You can be a genius and know taijiquan. I have a wealth of knowledge and experience when it comes to taijiquan and related fields. So what? Someone has to. Not everyone must be stuck in an eternal 'I only this tiny bit of it' state where their knowledge and experience is confined to a small series of topics.

wonderful! so then you could easily discuss the following:

1) what is the cardinal direction you allegorically face at the beginning of the taiji form, and why?
2) in the beginning of the taiji form, what is the mechanism by which the so-called "qi" is activated (hint: go read up on your Chuang Tzu)?
3) in the opening movement "Taiji Ascends" what meridian is the first to be activated and why?
4) as the form progresses, what direction does the it then travel in, why, and why are there 5 brush knees, and what does each one represent?
5) what is the correlation between the "taiji" of the body and the "tai ji" of the observable sky?
6) in the classical form, what realm is represented by each of the three chapters and why?
7) what is the active relationship between the I Ching and the macro-pattern of the taiji form (hint: the first move of the second chapter that most call "Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain" is pretty much a dead giveaway) and why is it that particular configuration?
8) in the Tai Gihk Sahp Yu (taiji ten principles), the first principle, "heui ling yuen ding" translates as "empty the collar, suspend the top" - what does this mean, how does it feel and why does it work, either from a taoist alchemical / internal body view (e.g. - The Nine Celestial Peaks) or a western anatomical / physiological / kinesiological perspective (e.g. - function of connective tissue via the principles of tensegrety)?
9) what is the relationship of the movement Wild Horse Parts Mane to the I Ching hexagram Kun, the Receptive, and why is it fundamental to the development of the taiji form, and how does it directly relate to the phrase "Energy rises to the top; Dragons battle in the field; Their blood flows dark and yellow."?
10) the movement "dan bin" is typically translated as Single Whip; however, an alternate viable translation is Cinnabar Transformation or Transforming the Elixir; from a taoist internal alchemical perspective, examining the experiential kinesioenergetics of that movement, why does this name make sense and accurately describe what is occuring here? also what is the move that precedes it that is necessary to set it up properly (hint: some people are missing it in their forms...) and what is the move after it that is required to resolve it correctly (also missing in most versions of the form)?

BTW - this is not, as you call it, a pi$$ing contest: you are making a claim of high-level taiji knowledge & experience; so come on then - enough generalizations, let's get down to specifics: provide some solid evidence to support that claim, plain and simple;
since these questions are all pretty much based on a combination of intellectual and experiential knowledge of taiji energetics at an intermediate to advanced level, they should be no problem for you...in fact, if you can answer even the first five of these questions correctly, I'd say that your level is respectable (although hardly profound); answer all 10 and I will not only validate your claim, I will no longer question your statements in any future posts, and in fact I will go back and delete the earlier posts I made that caused you such chagrin elsewhere; can you ask for anything more?

and if you think that this post is derailing this thread, I will be happy to delete it and start a new one dedicated to you providing support of your claim...

[1bad65]

Ron, there is no way i'm gonna read through and discuss that mega-post/syllabus you wrote.

Bottom line, if this Taji/Chi/internal junk you say works, why can't it be proven? Why are NONE of the best(or any for that manner) MMA guys doing it? Chi is bs, period. Watch(on Youtube) the Dillman clips from National Geographic and his student 'The Human Stun Gun' make fools of themselves when called out on their bs.

[Becca]

You do know that the early UFCs had some legit TMA guys right? Ichihara was a top Karate player in Japan, alot of Japanese press even followed him over for UFC 2. Pat Smith was a Sabaki Challenge champion.

Have you ever watched a Sabaki Challenge? I have; it's held in Denver every now and then. Very good full contact karate, but still only point sparring. They stop and reset after every point earned. Not exactly good training for MMA.

Gerard Gordeau was a successful Savate fighter, the list goes on and on. And they all lost to a BJJ guy quite easily, and looked pretty clueless doing so. And keep in mind, Royce Gracie was nowhere near a top BJJ competitor either. And those TMA guys competed, so you know they had realistic training methods.

Competed in what? Pride has been around that long, I believe. There were no Pride fighters in the early UFC. I know Koshu has been around that long. There were no koshu fighters in the UFC, earlier or current. And on exaple of one Savate fighter loosing to BJJ does not mean Savate itself is ineffective against BJJ.

The Gracies were not the first family to fight, but I dare say they were the most successful.

Really? So the Ali family were chumps? And the Formans? And those are just Household boxing names. The Gracies are a household name in the world of martial arts. But so is Hulk Hogan. Being a household name here in the U.S. does not make one the most successful.

[1bad65]

Have you ever watched a Sabaki Challenge? I have; it's held in Denver every now and then. Very good full contact karate, but still only point sparring. They stop and reset after every point earned. Not exactly good training for MMA.

Competed in what? Pride has been around that long, I believe. There were no Pride fighters in the early UFC. I know Koshu has been around that long. There were no koshu fighters in the UFC, earlier or current. And on exaple of one Savate fighter loosing to BJJ does not mean Savate itself is ineffective against BJJ.

Really? So the Ali family were chumps? And the Formans? And those are just Household boxing names. The Gracies are a household name in the world of martial arts. But so is Hulk Hogan. Being a household name here in the U.S. does not make one the most successful.

You can do better than that. Ok, so you say Pat Smith had inneffective training. What about Gordeau? Kevin Rosier was a World Champion kickboxer. Art Jimmerson was a Top 25 boxer. Ken Shamrock was a King of Pancrase. I know you hate the Gracies, but give them props for competing and WINNING. As for what styles/fighters did not fight; Art Davie(the matchmaker) put out ads for fighters in every MA mag he could, they chose the best of WHO APPLIED. Guys like Frank Dux and Emin Boztepe declined to enter it. Can't fault the UFC for that.

The Ali and Foreman families? Get real. While George Foreman and Mohammed Ali were excellent boxers, they don't have a fighting family history like the Gracies. Laila Ali? She fights tomato cans and runs from real fighters like Anne Wolfe. Helio Gracie was doing it in the 1950s! And the young Gracies are entering it now, Roger, Daniel, Ryan, etc. And I did not call anyone 'chumps'.

PRIDE came after UFC. PRIDE 1 was on 10/11/97. UFC 1 was on 11/12/93. The closest to MMA was Pancrase. The then-current King of Pancrase, Ken Shamrock, fought in UFC 1.