How Does One Defeat Gracie Jujistu ?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

About 25-27 seconds in you see the dreaded 'spiking the elbow into the spine' See for yourself how effective it is. Also, at around 1:44 Royce also tries the 'dim mak' of elbows to the spine.

Reply]
This shows exactly why this won't work. By the time it was thought to try it, the guy in yellow was already too far off balance, and being driven back to hard to make an effective strike with his elbow.

NOW, if the BJJ guy stepped in and stopped just short of taking the other guys center, and waited, then an elbow shot would work because you would be free to drop as many as you want from a solid position that allows proper power generation....of course, I don't know a BJJ guy on the planet would just stop and let you do that to him.....but if he did, then it would work.

[1bad65]

Guys, instead of talking about what works, you need to find out for yourself on the mats. Everyone talks about 'not having an ego....you need to empty you cup...' and all of the other bullsh!t, but do you really do it? Can you humble yourself, put on a white belt and go see what really happens? I did. It opened my eyes to how unprepared I was to end up flat on my back in a fight.

And therein lies the problem. Instead of putting on the white belt and admitting you need to start at step 1, alot of people would rather not leave their comfort zone where they are bowed to, called Master/Sifu/Sensei, and considered an expert. It's a total lack of humility by the same people who espouse being humble as a virtue.

Excellent post tjmitch

[BM2]

I'm just a noob with a blue belt in BJJ. I, too, thought that my quickness in striking would prevent me from being taken down when I first started. When a white belt took me down so fast that I didn't know what happened, it occured to me what went wrong.
I had never drilled take down defense.
How would anyone prevent from being taken down if they never practiced against it? Well, you don't and wind up on your back.
Oh, let's add the "My art also has ground fighting."
Have you tried it against a ground based system? Do you drill it? How about in class, do you roll?
Don't form an opinion untill you step on the mat with someone who does.

[tjmitch]

I also recently got my blue belt......my original plan was to do BJJ for a few months, just to be sure I could use my kung fu to deal with it. 3 years later I am still doing BJJ.

[lkfmdc]

well, almost 14 years after I first experienced BJJ, I am not only a BJJ student pretty much full time now (under Carmine Zochhi), I can also report that I've tapped to some of the best (Rickson, Royler, Carmine, Fabio Clemente, et al). Talk about "ego" It isn't managed by TMA mumbo jumbo. Getting on the mat and rolling, seeing stuff that you missed, getting put in bad positions, getting tapped, on bad days by people who you usually tap! .... THAT is what keeps ego in check

Along of course with healthy doses of wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, san da, clinching, etc

[Nick Forrer]

I can also report that I've tapped to some of the best (Rickson, Royler, Carmine, Fabio Clemente, et al)

Erm.....its great that you rate your instructor Ross but when you talk about 'the best' lets not put Carmine in with Rickson and Royler shall we.

[Ultimatewingchun]

FANWOO...

Go to a wrestling class/school and learn how to sprawl, cross face, underhook, and w h i z z e r.

And then go and buy/copy a bunch of Mirko Cro Cop's fights and watch how a first class kickboxer type has learned how to defend takedowns so well with his sprawls, underhooks, etc.

Watch, study, and learn.

And then go workout with some BJJ guys and other wrestler/grappler types who understand that you'll be punching and kicking along with sprawling when then try to do their thing.

And inside of one year your anti-takedown defense will be miles ahead of where it is right now.

Oh, and btw...if you're confused about some of the responses you've gotten on this thread - then pay close attention to the quote below from catch as catch can wrestling great Lou Thesz.

[lkfmdc]

Erm.....its great that you rate your instructor Ross but when you talk about 'the best' lets not put Carmine in with Rickson and Royler shall we.

great, nothing else to argue about, so let's have a pizz over this then, eh?

[RonH]

cjurakpt, you are lame and boring. It's a pity that you've gone to the only recourse left for those that have no counterargument. Politics, focusing on character assassination. This is the second time you have come into a thread and brought up the discussion you had with me. I say you had with me because you were the initiator, which you even admit to. I've see better character assassinations by the rabid fans when the issue of 'What is Star Wars canon?' comes up in the Trek-Wars debate.

You said that you wanted to end the discussion and I assumed that you were fine with the 'agree to disagree' stance. I had no problem with it. But, twice you have tried to derail a conversation I have had in a thread by bringing this issue in. Like the responses of several others, you feel that I should pay attention to what you and the others have to say. But, the only reason you suggest for me doing so is because of their experience and yours. You place your own experience higher than mine and expect me to bow down to it with nothing more for 'proof' than saying because 'we have experience'.

So, you wish me to not try it for myself and use my own experience and intuition, but rely on yours for no other reason than because you (and others) say so. Not only is your logic flawed, it is ridiculous. Your attempts to make me take on your material reductionist viewpoint, making chi nothing more than the preposterous notion that it is only a metaphor, didn't work.

But, look at what it drove you to do. You lied about wanting to drop the matter. For all I know, you could have even gone on and on about what happened between us to others in other threads on the board and even in real life. If I didn't budge and accept any part of a theory that's nothing more than 'screw what they thought back then', that must mean that I never will budge on any subject. That's what you got from what we talked about.

Oh, boo bloody boo. Instead of acting like a grown up, you moan and complain that 'I don't want to consider anything you had to say on the matter; that means, I'll never consider anyone's view on any other subject'.

How often have I been in the exact same threads as you when the question of chi came up that you posted in? You gave your metaphor view and I gave another. And not once did you just post in to threads I was in and pointed to what you thought was nonsense?

Zero. That's how many. Whatever the reason, me telling you I don't believe you somehow has screwed you up so much, you have to follow me around the board, bringing the subject up again.

Guess how many times I thought about our discussion since it ended? Zero. That's how many...except... for the 2 times you've jumped into threads I have been in and brought it up with no prompting from anyone. This is only the second time I've thought about it. And guess what? I'm not gonna be thinking about it again. Not unless I see you've brought it up in another post without prompting from anyone.

Now, let me be clear about something. If you jump into another thread I am in and, without prompting, bring up the discussion you and I had about chi, I will consider that you have moved full on into a stage where you are stalking me across the board and I will do something I don't want to: contact the management of the board about your stalking, harrassment and derailment of topics. For now, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are able to stop this behavior, but I am not gonna let this continue without doing anything about it.

This will stop one way or another.

You should take a page from RD'S Alias - 1A's playbook. He disagrees with me, but he's a thinker. At least he's showing that he's making the effort to devise a counterargument to what I have said and I think it's been going pretty well. Especially when it's compared to several of the others in the peanut gallery that just wants to ridicule what I've said, regardless of their reasoning.

And so, I have finally decided to create a 'do not reply to' list. The names are listed in no particular order, but in compiling the list, I'm gonna name you, cjurakpt, first. For no other reason for the order because I'm replying to you with this message. There's also unkokusai. Don't worry lkfmdc, you're on there, too, so you don't feel bad that you're being left out.

Vale Tudo with full force elbows to the back of the neck has been for over 50 years in Brazil. So far no one has had his neck broken or been paralyzed from this.

The early days of MMA in the USA allowed elbows to the back of the neck... no one was paralyzed or ended up with a broken neck there either.

KF, why is it so hard for you to understand that, while I said it can happen, I wasn't talking every single bloody time the move is tried? I've said that already. Why do you insist on ignoring this point that I have made more than once?

[SenseiShellie]

well, almost 14 years after I first experienced BJJ, I am not only a BJJ student pretty much full time now (under Carmine Zochhi), I can also report that I've tapped to some of the best (Rickson, Royler, Carmine, Fabio Clemente, et al). Talk about "ego" It isn't managed by TMA mumbo jumbo. Getting on the mat and rolling, seeing stuff that you missed, getting put in bad positions, getting tapped, on bad days by people who you usually tap! .... THAT is what keeps ego in check

Along of course with healthy doses of wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, san da, clinching, etc

Wow..you say you tapped out my instructor's dad? I find it very hard to believe...especially since he has a record of like 400 and 0 in grappling matches, with an 11-0 MMA record. I seriously find it hard to believe. What is your real name? I'll ask Kron about you, you know, just to verify your claim.

[Nick Forrer]

Wow..you say you tapped out my instructor's dad? I find it very hard to believe...especially since he has a record of like 400 and 0 in grappling matches, with an 11-0 MMA record. I seriously find it hard to believe. What is your real name? I'll ask Kron about you, you know, just to verify your claim.

He said he was tapped by Rickson...not that he tapped him. BTW do me a favour - get Kron to show you his choke from within the bottom guys half guard that he does in competition and then tell us how he does it

[RonH]

This is why you don't stop with the downward elbow. You follow up with temple strikes, hammer fists or whatever else you're capable of doing in that position to maintain dominance.

Reply]
Then why bother doing it?

To be able to do it. To take what is often seen as impossible to pull off during an 'alive' fight and make it workable. The fun is the challenge.

Just drop/ sink your weight, spread your legs back and to the side into either a deep bow or Mountain climbing stance,

It's too common a move. It's one that's often trained against.

or just sprawl enough to neutralize it, and get back to your feet.

I wouldn't want to sprawl and end up on the ground.

All this striking stuff will never work, because you have to open up too much at a critical time, when yo need to be maintaining your structure and root. If you are in a position to make a counter like that work, the BJJ guy is going to know that, and he won't shoot in the first place.

1) All joints and other 'weakspots' on the body are just as in danger as they are in when sinking your weight or going to the ground, regardless of how you face an opponent. Some are in less danger, say when you square off with someone, such as those on the back. But, if there are things behind you, they are in danger, if you get pushed back into them.
2) This is why I said learning to fake weakness is good because it gives you better control of the situation.

"This is why you don't stop with the downward elbow. You follow up with temple strikes, hammer fists or whatever else you're capable of doing in that position to maintain dominance."
I think what you are failing to realize is that this is happening in a nanosecond.

Exactly. By the time you have started any move against anyone, you should already have it laid out in your mind what you want to do as soon as you first lay eyes on your opponent. You also need to keep in mind several 'back up' possibilities that you can switch in and out of, as the fight continues or as something suddenly changes.

If your downward elbow doesn't work (it won't) yuo will NOT follow up with anything, as you will be already on the ground.Period.

Assuming you have nothing else up your sleeve, in case you don't get the move executed properly, for whatever reason.

I have a friend I train with-4th deg BB in JJ,(not BJJ) used to do Hung-Ga, collegieate wrestler, HS Football,weight lifter-basically built like a brick sh1thouse.
So I, like Ron had the same theories-"I'll use my horse" "I'll drop the elbow" "I'll this, that and the other thing.." yep. So we got on the floor. I tried it all, and then I said,"Yeah, well, I'm not hitting you hard." (cuz the elbow, well, that'll really fuk yu up.) so he says,"You can go harder" so I did. I (tried to) hit him with the elbow, and everything else. Then I went harder. And harder. Nope, Nothing. Nada. I am a firm believer. I was down and on my back so many times, I had road rash.
Last week, I'm at my Si-Hing's place and one of his guys is a greco-roman wrestler. He showed some things that drive this point home even more.
Basically, what I and it seems everyone else is saying is that you really and honestly need to grab someone who has real knowledge of this stuff, and then get on the mat and try. That is the only way you will ever know what works and what doesn't. Helz yeah it hurts, and the ego hurts even more, but that's the easy way.

I've trained for fighting/ground fighting against grapplers, wrestlers and other ground fighters. For some of them, it took me a long time before I won against them. For others, not so much. But, all of them knew what they were doing. I don't fight against anyone for the practice. I do study people before partnering up with them. I'm selective about who I fight with, but one of the characteristics I look for in someone to partner up with is someone that's got some trait that seriously trumps something I've got. I can't learn, if all I fight against are people with less skill/lower traits than me. That doesn't push the limits of what I can do to new heights. That's why I'm selective.

Do you want to find out the hard way? Do yu want to bear that responsibility for those you teach?

Any information I give out online, especially when it comes to martial arts technique, does come with some responsibility. That is why I give warnings. Those warnings are often expanded upon when I go into greater detail about the consequences of what can happen, if one is not careful, during the discussions of what I've said.

[Nick Forrer]

Notice the elbows to the back of the neck, notice the lack of effect

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI

[Nick Forrer]

Any information I give out online, especially when it comes to martial arts technique, does come with some responsibility. That is why I give warnings. Those warnings are often expanded upon when I go into greater detail about the consequences of what can happen, if one is not careful, during the discussions of what I've said.

Superb trolling, really superb. My hat goes off to you - its a veritable master class. Tell me do you do stand up comedy - if so, when and where?

[Merryprankster]

I wouldn't want to sprawl and end up on the ground.

Then learn how to sprawl and not wind up on the ground.