WSL on LSJC

[guy b.]

Not true. Even PB says the entire system of VT can be clearly explained in one afternoon. It just takes a lot of practice to get the body to follow.

Talking about the system and doing it are two very different things. If a higher level teaching method is available but requires experience to use then you are likely to end up teaching the inferior method to beginners at a seminar but the better method in class

[k gledhill]

Lmao at the inquisition ! Whatever guys have fun in your training.

[LFJ]

Talking about the system and doing it are two very different things. If a higher level teaching method is available but requires experience to use then you are likely to end up teaching the inferior method to beginners at a seminar but the better method in class

There is no inferior method! It is all part of the same learning process. All students will learn and go through the same process, learning the same material, whether at a seminar or in regular class, as WSL even said. It is not that what is taught at seminars would not be taught to regular students, like it was something simple and inferior made up for that situation.

Also, if someone can't explain the method clearly to where even a complete beginner can understand and can begin training in the proper way, then they are a terrible teacher.

If you are able, take a look at DP's SNT DVD. It is presented in seminar format. In that seminar he was able to start from the very foundation of the system in explaining the core concepts and principles and starting from setting YJKYM out properly, then taught such things as the 3 taan-sau as WSL taught them, the beginning ideas of LSJC, the taan-sau as both an applicable as-is technique and a striking concept, like fuk-sau, which is the "primary function" PBVT students go on about. For example, he shows how jing-jeung is a taan striking concept, and waang-jeung is a fuk striking concept and how and when they function, as well as how daan-sau works the taan striking concept like the last punch in the CK form Graham mentioned earlier.

All this he was able to explain in an easy to understand way in how long? Like an hour or two. However long the video was. I find it hard to believe WSL was not capable of the same thing or even more given less time restraints.

There is no inferior method. There are only time restraints. But whether in class or in seminar it starts from the same foundation and moves through the same process no matter what.

[KPM]

Lmao at the inquisition ! Whatever guys have fun in your training.

Keep laughing. It only turned into an "inquisition" when PB supporters insisted on asserting certain things despite evidence to the contrary. It only turned into an "inquisition" when PB supporters insisted on denying clear logically reasoning. I wasn't willing to sit back and see PB supporters make WSL look bad in order to support PB.

But you're right. Time to get back to training. I think any reasonable person would have reached their own conclusion on this thread by now.

[k gledhill]

Keep laughing. It only turned into an "inquisition" when PB supporters insisted on asserting certain things despite evidence to the contrary. It only turned into an "inquisition" when PB supporters insisted on denying clear logically reasoning. I wasn't willing to sit back and see PB supporters make WSL look bad in order to support PB.

But you're right. Time to get back to training. I think any reasonable person would have reached their own conclusion on this thread by now.

Glad it's all clear to you now.
Train hard.

[guy b.]

If you are able, take a look at DP's SNT DVD. It is presented in seminar format. In that seminar he was able to start from the very foundation of the system in explaining the core concepts and principles and starting from setting YJKYM out properly, then taught such things as the 3 taan-sau as WSL taught them, the beginning ideas of LSJC, the taan-sau as both an applicable as-is technique and a striking concept, like fuk-sau, which is the "primary function" PBVT students go on about. For example, he shows how jing-jeung is a taan striking concept, and waang-jeung is a fuk striking concept and how and when they function, as well as how daan-sau works the taan striking concept like the last punch in the CK form Graham mentioned earlier.

Why do you believe what DP says in a video but not what students of PB say he told them? This can only be because the video of DP supports what you already believe to be true, while the information about PB does not.

[guy b.]

It only turned into an "inquisition" when PB supporters insisted on denying clear logically reasoning.

The information presented on this thread could be interpreted in a number of different ways. There is no clear reasoning leading to a particular conclusion

[Paddington]

Lmao at the inquisition ! Whatever guys have fun in your training.

When PB says in one of his articles (that can be found on T-Ray's site (I think it is him in North Wales?)) that the entire Wing Chun system can be explained in an afternoon, well, one would imagine his established and long standing students should also be able to do the same. I guess some, in a way myself included, are calling people out to attempt this explanation.

I am sorry if you feel I have been too aggressive in pursuing answers. I am not affiliated to any wing chun group right now, so my motives are purely to gain intel to improve my own training.

EDIT: For the record, I would like to say I like very much PBs wing chun and I also agree with most of what he says in his articles; he has a lot of integrity with regards to his wing chun and is very honest about the training required.

[GlennR]

The information presented on this thread could be interpreted in a number of different ways. There is no clear reasoning leading to a particular conclusion

Not from where i sit.

Id ask you why you are so quick to leap to the PB boys defense?

[Graham H]

So many posts and still LFJ hasn't got a clue what he's on about

[LFJ]

Why do you believe what DP says in a video but not what students of PB say he told them? This can only be because the video of DP supports what you already believe to be true, while the information about PB does not.

What are you even talking about?

I never doubted PB said what they say he said. My point with that post is that VT is very simple, as it is designed to be, and can be explained to a beginner in an easy-to-understand manner in a very short period of time. DP's seminar videos are an example of that. As PB says himself, the entire system can be explained in an afternoon.

So that coupled with WSL's own words saying he taught the same information to everyone equally whether in seminars or regular classes, there is absolutely no reason to believe what WSL taught in his seminars was some "inferior method" or "seminar stuff". No reason. What he taught was a regular part of the VT system that he always taught, wherever, whenever, and to whomever.

[LFJ]

So many posts and still LFJ hasn't got a clue what he's on about

No thanks to you being unable to logically counter any of my points and set me straight but actually conceding each point, I suppose?

Your only copout is to tell me I have to go meet PB to understand WSLVT. Funny, if that were the case, when I asked PB who under WSL he'd recommend as being closest in thinking to his method, he should have said 'No one. I'm the only one that got it', instead of giving me a name...

[guy b.]

My point with that post is that VT is very simple, as it is designed to be, and can be explained to a beginner in an easy-to-understand manner in a very short period of time. DP's seminar videos are an example of that. As PB says himself, the entire system can be explained in an afternoon.

The overall approach of the system can be explained in a relatively short time, this is true. This does not mean that the system can be physically imparted to another person in an afternoon. It isn't possible for a beginner to physically understand and internalise the system in a short period of time. A lot of practice is required. There is a big difference between understanding some basic ideas of the system and being able to make those ideas work in practice. Hence the use of teaching methods and demonstrations for beginners, they are a basic introduction. Not required when you are good at ving tsun.

So that coupled with WSL's own words saying he taught the same information to everyone equally whether in seminars or regular classes, there is absolutely no reason to believe what WSL taught in his seminars was some "inferior method" or "seminar stuff". No reason. What he taught was a regular part of the VT system that he always taught, wherever, whenever, and to whomever.

The same information has a beginning a middle and an end. Demos and introductions are not required in the for someone interested in working the fully functional system.

[LFJ]

Sooooo, we have the jip sau of course, with its various uses but I think direct limb attack is under used in VT. Attack the attack. Is this a stale topic?

Jip sau is a misinterpretation of pak/jut sau with a punch. It's used as an idea in many systems because one person looked at it without an explanation and thought oh what could that be?

I guess they're talking about the jit-sau (截手) action in CK which literally means 'to cutt off (a length)'.

And I guess that "one person" Graham is talking about that wasn't taught properly and screwed up the interpretation of VT actions for everyone is yet again WSL!

@35:20 in the same video on the original post once again;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOSpET3SJu4

He explains how grabbing and turning the opponent's hand when they've grabbed you is two movements and thus too slow, when jit-sau in one action is enough to snap the arm. Wait, snap the arm? Another misinterpretation from a misguided fool! Way to go WSL.

For reference, @1:40 here PB shows the "primary striking function" of this action. But let's not become slaves to the "primary function" and call all expanded thinking a misinterpretation. There are moments where it can be used as WSL shows above, and why not?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubT7yQmiSN8

[LFJ]

There is a big difference between understanding some basic ideas of the system and being able to make those ideas work in practice. Hence the use of teaching methods and demonstrations for beginners, they are a basic introduction. Not required when you are good at ving tsun.

What's your point? WSL's introduction to students was the same for seminars and regular class.

The same information has a beginning a middle and an end. Demos and introductions are not required in the for someone interested in working the fully functional system.

So if one is interested in the full system, they can just skip the 'beginning' and jump to the 'middle' or 'end'? Not in WSLVT.