Would SLT be of any use if it was all you ever got to learn?

[GlennR]

You think I didn't read the thread because I didn't agree with you? Lol

Learning SNT would have zero practical application. In fact doing what is in that form would probably be a negative in terms of ability to fight. There is nothing of how to use any shape in SNT. Nothing of any body motion. The movements are not for practical application like a recipe book.

Firstly, glad to see you finally put your background up.

Youre just plain wrong in regards to this, buy purely from a lineage thing which you need to get your head around.

All the major WC branches have different interpretations of the forms and train accordingly/

TST does what you say cant be done in your above statements as an example, and yes, i have been well exposed to WSLVT via Barry Lees Oz school, so i have a fair measuring stick to go by.

FWIW, the hardest hitters (pound for pound(ive experienced in WC have been TST guys with little or no footwork

With wing chun you need to learn SNT, CK and dummy (and the relevant drills) before you have anything remotely useful. The good news is that this shouldn't take long to learn.

In what context? Self defense or sport combat?

[KungFubar]

... The good news is that this shouldn't take long to learn.

how long for the dedicated before its useful?

[tc101]

What does tc101 mean anyway? Tai Chi 101? That would figure. Or is total c**t101?

Oh whoops! There is the name calling again that I hide behind. Sorry BPWT

TC are the initials to my name and i served with the 101st.

[tc101]

how long for the dedicated before its useful?

As I learned wing chun what you learned and practiced you could immediately use not at high level but you could use it as you learned it. My perspective is different than sLT is basic level it is dominate centerline level which is of course the most basic way but takes high skill to do. You need more than is referenced in the SLT form to do that as was pointed out you need footwork and some techniques that is not in the form. The forms are not meant in my perspective to be restrictive but expressive. The form expresses a concept but that concept is not limited to only those techniques in the form and will need more to fully express. To put it another way the form just gives you a little idea that you expand upon.

[KungFubar]

As I learned wing chun what you learned and practiced you could immediately use not at high level but you could use it as you learned it. My perspective is different than sLT is basic level it is dominate centerline level which is of course the most basic way but takes high skill to do. You need more than is referenced in the SLT form to do that as was pointed out you need footwork and some techniques that is not in the form. The forms are not meant in my perspective to be restrictive but expressive. The form expresses a concept but that concept is not limited to only those techniques in the form and will need more to fully express. To put it another way the form just gives you a little idea that you expand upon.

nice insight thank you.

[Vajramusti]

Guy's ex sifu is a young guy who leaned from Ip Chun. There are vast differences in how
people learn the sil lim tao. I don't do Ip Chun or Yeung wing chun.

A great problem in forum discussions is the pigeon holing and generalizations about quite different
forms of wing chun

When I learned the sil lim tao I developed pretty decent usage and understanding of how to DEVELOP each motion and many useful applications of the sil lim tao motions...for self defense.
Even in motion you are seldom far from the principles properly learned in ygkym.I could spar with power with what I learned.

Of course learning additional forms opened up and opens up new doors.

So in answering the original questioner(Kungfubar)- if you are taught slt well you can get started in defending yourself. With chum kiu well taught you get better. But the original question was- what if you only learned the slt.
The core principles of the motions are there in slt- proper balance, controlling one's motions in different directions, synthesis of external and internal factors, focus, targeting, distance, knowing your center of gravity at all times, coordinating lower body, upper body and hand structures, the dynamic geometry of the structures-lines circles,triangles, pyramids.'properly connecting all the bone joints

Sheesh- what a crazy thread... noise and much nonsense.

[Hendrik]

Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more?

Slt is the foundation core of Wck .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS7n7IPfb1s

[EternalSpring]

All I know is the YM Moy Yat Line SNT worked for me when it was all I knew. Part of it is a "mindset imo." If you try to apply what you learn and really think about it and experiment with it, you could probably even use the macarena to fight.

[EternalSpring]

Also, from the posts I've skimmed it seems that most agree that, Siu Nim Tao, while the name for a form, is also a "level." You dont just learn Chum Kiu the day after you finish SNT. And in most cases, knowing SNT doesn't even mean you're "doing it well." There are plenty of drills, even those that include footwork and elbows for this level as well. Does a person who knows the SNT form but not all the drills/etc necessary to train and strengthen the form really count as "knowing" SNT? If it did, then "knowing" something wouldn't necessarily be anything significant anyways.

[trubblman]

I guess it depends on what is considered SLT level in your school. I learned basic footwork as part of SLT level before ever starting on the CK form. Learning SLT for technique and structure, drilling and Chi Sau for application of basic techniques, basic footwork to make drilling a bit more realistic and learn more realistic applications, and only then the CK form itself. The point of the CK form is not footwork. The point is angling and capturing the center. I was taught you need to know the basic footwork before beginning to focus on those things. Your mileage may vary!

Ah yes the Wing Chun footwork and drilling....I forgot about those #sarcasm Again keep in mind the original question: Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more? My answer is only in the context. I do remember Bruce Lee starting out with SLT a smattering of CK and footwork and drills but then again he called his Jeet Kune Do

[Graham H]

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You obviously have a very limited understanding of sil lim tao-it's details and it's functions. But you are not alone.


Onward through the fog.

That's not true at all Joy! Your system has filled it up with stuff that's not meant to be there. How can you fight using SLT? People that think they can have no clue about anything. People think that they can start adding things to it and say it's ok to pivot, step and turn in SLT. Isn't that CK?

Firstly you are stood still. You can fight stood still can you? Both feet and knees are turned in. You have no support front or back so if you were attacked you would have to move somewhere. The stance is for exercising not fighting. In CK we learn to adopt the correct fighting posture not SLT? You are bascially training two rear legs positions in SLT. I guess you could waddle around like a big duck if you like!

The first section contains actions that are done at a very slow pace. You can fight in slow mo in Fong's Wing Chun can you? :s

In the second section we use two arms together. You use these actions to fight? Don't make me laugh. One great example is when somebody taught me to use double jut sau from SLT to break a choke hold. lmao. What about the rear double gum sau to grab your attackers balls during a bear hug, Sounds gay and that application is for ****sexuals.

In the third section the arms become more independent of each other but the actions cannot function correctly until we add the pivot and/or step. These actions in SLT are to lay foundations. They are to develop the basic mechanics of the Ving Tsun fighting stance and an introduction to the various arm actions contained within the system.

When people try to use the actions from SLT for fighting they start adding stuff in order to make them work then they say its ok to pivot and step before CK. Why even bother to stand still at all? Boxers don't stand still when they first go in the gym. Why should it be required in Wing Chun? Maybe its to manipulate chi around the body like some other Wing Chun freaks think.

The real reason why we stand still is to develop and become ucustomed to an unatural leg and foot position. If humans walked around with the feet and knees turned in we wouldn't need YGKYM. The reason for devoting so much time and effort to moving the arm in and out via tan sau, fook sau and wu sau is to develop the unatural punching mechanics for the Ving Tsun straight punch. It's as simple as that and the fact that Wing Chun is a pretty useless fighting system if in the wrong hands it means that Teachers and students all over the world are fooling themselves into thinking something is effective when it's not. They would be better off going to a good boxing club. Fortuneately there was a small proprotion of Yip Man's students that carried in the correct idea of Ving Tsun where most have them have destroyed the whole system and made a global laughing stock! FACT!

SLT is a precursor to CK. WSL said it perfectly when he said SLT is your ABC. CK makes words and Chi Sau makes sentences. Anybody that is trying to use your basic ABC's to fight is a complete fool.

[GlennR]

That's not true at all Joy! Your system has filled it up with stuff that's not meant to be there. How can you fight using SLT? People that think they can have no clue about anything. People think that they can start adding things to it and say it's ok to pivot, step and turn in SLT. Isn't that CK?

So are you saying a WSL guy thats only trained SLT is no better equipped than when he first started training?

Firstly you are stood still. You can fight stood still can you? Both feet and knees are turned in. You have no support front or back so if you were attacked you would have to move somewhere. The stance is for exercising not fighting. In CK we learn to adopt the correct fighting posture not SLT? You are bascially training two rear legs positions in SLT. I guess you could waddle around like a big duck if you like!

Clever boy!

The first section contains actions that are done at a very slow pace. You can fight in slow mo in Fong's Wing Chun can you? :s

But CK is hardly done at full fighting speed..... your point is?

In the second section we use two arms together. You use these actions to fight? Don't make me laugh. One great example is when somebody taught me to use double jut sau from SLT to break a choke hold. lmao. What about the rear double gum sau to grab your attackers balls during a bear hug, Sounds gay and that application is for ****sexuals.

I assume you loved that! bwahahahahaah

In the third section the arms become more independent of each other but the actions cannot function correctly until we add the pivot and/or step. These actions in SLT are to lay foundations. They are to develop the basic mechanics of the Ving Tsun fighting stance and an introduction to the various arm actions contained within the system.

I disrespectfully disagree

The real reason why we stand still is to develop and become ucustomed to an unatural leg and foot position.

Id suggest its the whole posture... head to toe

If humans walked around with the feet and knees turned in we wouldn't need YGKYM. The reason for devoting so much time and effort to moving the arm in and out via tan sau, fook sau and wu sau is to develop the unatural punching mechanics for the Ving Tsun straight punch.

In conjunction with the stance training....

It's as simple as that and the fact that Wing Chun is a pretty useless fighting system if in the wrong hands it means that Teachers and students all over the world are fooling themselves into thinking something is effective when it's not. They would be better off going to a good boxing club.

Youre welcome at our club anytime G!

Fortuneately there was a small proprotion of Yip Man's students that carried in the correct idea of Ving Tsun where most have them have destroyed the whole system and made a global laughing stock! FACT!

God bless em!

[tc101]

That's not true at all Joy! Your system has filled it up with stuff that's not meant to be there. How can you fight using SLT? People that think they can have no clue about anything. People think that they can start adding things to it and say it's ok to pivot, step and turn in SLT. Isn't that CK?

Your confusion arises because you think a movement is in a certain form so that makes it belong to or you learn it only from that form or when you learn that form. I do not know how you learned wing chun but the first thing I learned in wing chun was stationary punching then punching while stepping forward so as you see learning is not restricted to only those actions in the form you have learned. At SLT level you do not only use or are restricted to using the actions found in SLT that makes no sense. Instead your focus is on learning the concept of that form and how to carry that out.

The forms express a concept and SLT is about dominating the centerline. When you have the line and control it you do not need or want to shift or angle you want to stay on that line so the SLT represents that concept by not shifting or angling to a new line but dominating the line you have.

Firstly you are stood still. You can fight stood still can you? Both feet and knees are turned in. You have no support front or back so if you were attacked you would have to move somewhere. The stance is for exercising not fighting. In CK we learn to adopt the correct fighting posture not SLT? You are bascially training two rear legs positions in SLT. I guess you could waddle around like a big duck if you like!

The first section contains actions that are done at a very slow pace. You can fight in slow mo in Fong's Wing Chun can you? :s

In the second section we use two arms together. You use these actions to fight? Don't make me laugh. One great example is when somebody taught me to use double jut sau from SLT to break a choke hold. lmao. What about the rear double gum sau to grab your attackers balls during a bear hug, Sounds gay and that application is for ****sexuals.

In the third section the arms become more independent of each other but the actions cannot function correctly until we add the pivot and/or step. These actions in SLT are to lay foundations. They are to develop the basic mechanics of the Ving Tsun fighting stance and an introduction to the various arm actions contained within the system.

When people try to use the actions from SLT for fighting they start adding stuff in order to make them work then they say its ok to pivot and step before CK. Why even bother to stand still at all? Boxers don't stand still when they first go in the gym. Why should it be required in Wing Chun? Maybe its to manipulate chi around the body like some other Wing Chun freaks think.

You do not need to pivot or step if you control the centerline and doing so would move you out of a position of advantage. there are times in fighting when you are stationary but still dynamic. The movements or actions in all the forms are not meant to be applied or performed exactly like in the form. The forms do not mimic fighting and that is why they do not look like fighting.

The real reason why we stand still is to develop and become ucustomed to an unatural leg and foot position. If humans walked around with the feet and knees turned in we wouldn't need YGKYM. The reason for devoting so much time and effort to moving the arm in and out via tan sau, fook sau and wu sau is to develop the unatural punching mechanics for the Ving Tsun straight punch.

There is nothing unusual in either the arm or leg actions or positions in wing chun. It doesn't make sense to me to practice tan fook wu to develop the punch when I can just practice the punch.

It's as simple as that and the fact that Wing Chun is a pretty useless fighting system if in the wrong hands it means that Teachers and students all over the world are fooling themselves into thinking something is effective when it's not. They would be better off going to a good boxing club. Fortuneately there was a small proprotion of Yip Man's students that carried in the correct idea of Ving Tsun where most have them have destroyed the whole system and made a global laughing stock! FACT!

Then there are those pesky wing chun people with different ideas than yours who have fought successfully in full contact or k1 or mma. The laughing comes from when people make claims of superiority or think that only they have the right idea but with no evidence to back them up or when people who do not fight try to sound like they do or think eye jabs and groin kicks will save them. The globe is not laughing for instance at the Orr group.

SLT is a precursor to CK. WSL said it perfectly when he said SLT is your ABC. CK makes words and Chi Sau makes sentences. Anybody that is trying to use your basic ABC's to fight is a complete fool.

Yes yes the name calling anyone who does not agree with you is a fool. SLT is a precursor to CK because CK concept is changing and breaking the centerline. There is no need to change it if you dominate it. But if you can't control the line you are on then you break or change it. The abc word sentence example is not how I learned wing chun.

[KPM]

Clearly there are two different mindsets at work in this thread. And that's OK. There is no reason to get nasty and dogmatic. As I pointed out before, there is no such thing as "carved in granite"...."Yip Man" Wing Chun. Different Yip Man students went on to teach and organize the material differently. Yip Man himself likely didn't teach and organize his material exactly the same way throughout his teaching career.

One mindset or approach may see any use of footwork to be CK level material. Therefore SLT is not practical because it is stationary....and if you start moving, it is no longer SLT, it is CK. That's OK.

Another mindset or approach sees CK as teaching concepts of capturing the centerline, which happens to use footwork. But the footwork itself is something taught as a intermediate stage of training between learning the SLT form and learning the CK form. Therefore they put footwork and practical applications with the material and concepts learned in the SLT form. That's OK too.

Just because someone's particular teacher uses one approach and not the other does not give you the right to dogmatically state that the other approach is wrong or not "real" Wing Chun. That's just silly and narrow-minded. There is no single "right" way to do Wing Chun. There are many variations. Heck....Pin Sun Wing Chun doesn't even have the SLT or CK forms!

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1235503]That's not true at all Joy! Your system has filled it up with stuff that's not meant to be there. How can you fight using SLT? People that think they can have no clue about anything. People think that they can start adding things to it and say it's ok to pivot, step and turn in SLT. Isn't that CK?
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Graham
Apparently you had trouble reading or understanding my post.....perhaps because of your true believer dogmatism.
I never said that you pivot, step and turn in slt.

Developing the "song" ,limber but strong connections of joints, ligaments and tendons takes time.
No catechism prevents learning various drills, turns. shifts and chi sao with slt motions while developing for for chum kiu.All of the above gets you ready for putting them together via chum kiu. The muscles are not rigid in good slt. It takes time to develop relaxed musculature to assist
the coordination of the skeletal structure... a balanced relaxed, springy structure that can explode when needed.Acceleration from 0 to 100 and beyond.

You dont know what you are calling my system. But I respect WSL- have met him,attended two seminars by him and rolled with him. Ip Man's good students all had different things to offer.
Listening is much better than cutting people up in a forum.

Ip Man could fight just with ChanWah Son's slt before Leung bik refined his understanding of chum kiu and biu gee.

SLT, ck, and bg becomes one form with sufficient guidance, training and understanding.

A good curriculum in parallel fashion can include drills, steps, punches, palms, elbows , chi sao
to smooth-en the progression.