Attitudes on WC cross-training?

I was talking to a friend, discussing all the "politics" of the WC community and we both marveled at how little tolerance there is for cross-training between established WC organizations. Many organizations would be more tolerant of a student studying a totally different martial art such as BJJ or Escrima than to have them train, even just occaisionally, with another branch of WC. And for instructors, the attitudes are even stricter. A "sifu" is often required to "set a good example" by never being seen to cross bridges with WC adepts from other organizations, except to dominate them and demonstrate the superiority of his own lineage!

I, personally have a hard time with this kind of attitude. And, I don't necessarily mind getting "humbled" by someone better than myself ..."sifu" or not. How the hell else are you supposed to learn and grow in your art? But then again, I'm not trying to make a living from my art. That does change things. Any thoughts?

I don't see the problem with building bridges. But there is a fundamental problem with training in 2 WCK orgs. that have different mechanics. Especially if you are just starting out in your training.

In my last school I did start incorporating training ideas and mechanics (50/50 instead of 70/30 weighting) from other schools. Would have been interesting to see where I would have ended up had I continued there.

I think that people tend to choose locality over quality sometimes, especially the beginner as they tend to be influenced by 'quick fix' solutions, and cheaper classes. They have a right to try as many different schools as they please. And I suppose an instructor doesn't mind losing a beginner if they venture out, but someone they have invested more years in will always cause problems. Many people I have talked to are also looking to 'fill gaps' in their training and sometimes this is only available through other lineages, as all families from Ip Man especially have their own specific identities and practices.

I also believe that even the best researchers of Wing Chun out there today still have loyalties to one group or family. Its hard to mix with others if you're known to originate from one school or teacher. And the older you get the harder it is to find people from across families who are willing to openly exchange for the betterment of Wing Chun.

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Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer

But then again, I'm not trying to make a living from my art. That does change things. Any thoughts?

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If you're making a living through teaching you're very lucky imo! Most tend to teach part time whilst holding down a job, and fme that is very rarely profitable or secure.

I think it's better to live a martial life rather than make a living with your martial life :D But respects to anyone who is teaching Wing Chun as a career choice. There is massive competition out there!

The "cross training" that we are talking about here, are we talking about to train different style or different WC branches? IMO, to train different WC branches is not "cross training".

Most Longfist guys train 查(Zha), 花(Hua), 洪(Hong), 弹(Tan), 炮(Pao). It's still considered as only training one system but different brenches.

In SC, you can train brenches such as Baoding, Tienjing, Beijing, Mongolian, ShanXi, and Yi. you are still considered as training one style.

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Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer

I was talking to a friend, discussing all the "politics" of the WC community and we both marveled at how little tolerance there is for cross-training between established WC organizations. Many organizations would be more tolerant of a student studying a totally different martial art such as BJJ or Escrima than to have them train, even just occaisionally, with another branch of WC. And for instructors, the attitudes are even stricter. A "sifu" is often required to "set a good example" by never being seen to cross bridges with WC adepts from other organizations, except to dominate them and demonstrate the superiority of his own lineage!

I, personally have a hard time with this kind of attitude. And, I don't necessarily mind getting "humbled" by someone better than myself ..."sifu" or not. How the hell else are you supposed to learn and grow in your art? But then again, I'm not trying to make a living from my art. That does change things. Any thoughts?

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It's because you're thinking like a martial artist and not a cult follower, or someone who isn't secure in their skills. I'm directing my students and kung fu brothers to your post. I think every "martial artist" should think the same as you do.

If people didn't get into all that 'crap' like where to put their weight, there wouldn't be much problem in cross-training with other WC folk.

However, it is MUCH easier to cross train in something like BJJ to add to the arsenal because of the lack of politics (from WC to BJJ).

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

The "cross training" that we are talking about here, are we talking about to train different style or different WC branches? IMO, to train different WC branches is not "cross training".

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I kinda agree with that :)

And I also know that my Grandmaster Lee Shing shared the same view. Unfortunately, even during his time with Ip Man (1950's) he too was targetted by students who thought that the 1 Master rule should apply to everyone whereas Ip Man himself had a certain respect for him 'because' he had already visited other families and trained with other Masters of Wing Chun.

I think the thread is aimed at people who train or have trained in various Wing Chun branches, of which there are many here! Unfortunately, from what I have seen, these people often debunk or insult previous schools/sifus the moment they find something better and that, imho, is the main cause of conflict between families. And it's kinda embarrassing to witness too :o

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Originally Posted by Phil Redmond

It's because you're thinking like a martial artist and not a cult follower, or someone who isn't secure in their skills. I'm directing my students and kung fu brothers to your post. I think every "martial artist" should think the same as you do.

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Amen, Sifu Redmond.

CMA seems to have a hang-up on Fantasy based marketing vs results based marketing which tends to screw things up.

If your marketing angle is that you learned the secret sauce from the guy in the 36th chamber of the 4th hall in the third apartment building next to the shaolin temple or whatever that makes you and your secrets unbeatable - it ruins your business if you or your students get beat.

If your marketing angle is that you produce fighters who compete/represent with respectable results - the marketing isn't about you or being unbeatable anymore. Nobody cares if you don't do well one time as long as you continue to produce students at a high quality.

One culture is about an ego, the other culture is not.

If you train from one WC to another it is not cross training. The mechanics should be the exact same or one is not WC. Cross training would indeed be training in a completely different form of MA. BJJ, JJJ, Judo, Karate, whatever. There is no problem with that as long as you do not try to mix and match it at one form. No other form of gung fu has the mechanics of WC and you can not alter it and still call it WC.
Most of the different families of WC do tend to have different moves on their training forms, but it does not really matter as long as the moves are still solidly based in WC mechanics. I have 5 brothers and 2 sisters, and all are WC practitioners to some degree today, and none of us look the same in our training forms. I wonder, do the founders of these different families of WC fight over it like everyone else does?

After studying some eskrima under grumblegeezer along with the wing chun im learning, i can understand why people have problems with it. i can only speak from personal experience that I agree with sifu on the benefits of studying both as they have each helped improve the other in their own ways. im not sure how well it would work out if you were to study two wc styles at the same time, itd have to partially be based on which wc styles you train and if your sifus would be okay with it.

Hello,

My opinion is that one needs to build a foundation first prior to exploring other arts or branches of WC. You need something upon which to build and the problem, imho, is that too many do not understand one approach before they jump into others. In WC there are many variations, rear weighted, even weighted stances for example. Shifting on the balls, heels or toes, etc. If one does not have a good understanding of one approach then it is very possible that one will try to learn everything at the start and end up fully understanding nothing.

Now once one has a foundation then I see no problem with exploring other arts and if one finds things that work for them to incorporate them into ones approach.

Sifu Chow encourages this type of approach. He himself has explored other lineages of WC as well as other arts and blended them into his system.

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Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po

Most of the different families of WC do tend to have different moves on their training forms, but it does not really matter as long as the moves are still solidly based in WC mechanics...

I wonder, do the founders of these different families of WC fight over it like everyone else does?

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A great point ;)

Its only the uneducated newer students that tend to brag about their skills until they meet an elder who nullifies everything they do with simple sticking hand principles. We shouldn't allow the lack of respect often shown by the young, but what can we really do about it? They have a wider circle of influence than I ever had, and in many respects their reasoning about what works and what doesn't against that dreaded 'resisting opponent' is sound, for their skill level. ;)

Speaking from experience, I have had a massive task just to get Lee Shing family members together more often and we're pretty small in comparison to WSL or William Cheung lineage. I could never have done what I have on my own, it needed different generations to sit together so we all needed to 'want' to improve our family. It is rare to find the caring student these days!

My view; sort your own house first before exchanging with outsiders. And I'm sorry to say this, but I feel some families will never even accomplish that :o

Politics is fueled by money. If you are running a school and its the sole source of your income than your most people are more incline to discourage other lineages and kwoons because it may cause a student to leave for better instructor or different sifu.

So to stop high turn over rates they are competitve and jealous!