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i read the book on this ten years ago...tragicQuote:
Originally Posted by SPJ
the whole period, for the entire world was tragic. In fact, the ripple effect of all of it is still felt today. Obviously.
I wonder if this film will help to heal wounds or open old ones.
Obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Jamieson
The Chinese Government still use it regularly to renew anti-Japanese and generally nationalistic fervour.
The Japanese Government and right wing still use it as anti-Chinese jingoistic denial.
I guess some of the Chinese people still (rightly) want more redress (they don't know or care about the extensive reparations already paid to their government by the Japanese government).
I guess some Chinese would rather let it lie.
Most Japanese I've spoken to about it are appalled to the point that they can't speak about it.
Some just don't believe it, whether through reasoning or horror.
This movie can only cause more problems... which of course doesn't mean it shouldn't have been made.
Even knowing that none of my wife's family were in the Imperial Army will not make this movie much easier for me to watch. :(
i think the only positive humanity can find out of this story is that you need to be your own spirit, patriotism can be an unneccasry sp? evil that leads to no good...you human first not your flag or your religious gang...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Punch
Japan's Unit 731 made the Nazi party look tame. Japan has some horrible history behind its culture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvcs5rA95FU
They were bad. A German Nazi in Nanking, John Rabe, was so appalled at the atrocities that he set up a safety zone in Nanking (The International Committee for Nanking Safety Zone).Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Jack II
When a Nazi is disgusted by your behavior that says alot.
Not to go off topic, but this one big reason I'll never apologize for my country dropping the A-boms on Japan.
The Germans also did medical experiments on prisoners. However throughout the war Hitler himself ordered that the Germans never use chemical weapons in combat. This was due to his being gassed in WW1. He knew the Allies would retaliate with gas attacks and the thought of German soldiers being gassed actually disgusted him.
The Germans also never attempted to develop or use biological weapons, unlike the Japanese.
I don't think it is necessarily off topic - we're talking about strong emotions and human reaction, but you see mate, we can't even have a conversation about this because you already decided I'm a Japanophile (whatever you define that as - ostensibly a racist term itself)...Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bad65
BTW, great point Diego, but unfortunately I'm not sure modern Japanese people would give themselves a chance to assess things in that way. Dunno, some would.
Thanks for the link BJ, I'd love to put that on the five huge TV screens in Shibuya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Jack II
Mind you, while I was at it, I'd love for my government to apologise to the estimated 30 million we starved in India, the 300 000 we massacred in Kenya in the Mao Mao uprising, etc etc... I don't think that excuses the Japanese, nor is it equivalent in atrocity (no mass rape, no experiments etc), but it still ain't so great.
And where did I say that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Punch
The Harry Truman/reasons for the A-bomb thread.
You saw the name Harry Truman and went off in a frothing rage over what you decided I was saying instead of reading it and bothering to pause to understand it for a second, when I wasn't actually a million miles away from your position. I bet you didn't actually Google what I thought you might be interested in Googling either did you? The bit about Truman and his decisions for the bombings: you assumed that I was talking about hindsight, for some reason not thinking for a moment that he'd considered the decision very very carefully for some time before the attack...!
Anyway, it makes interesting reading (the main site you'd come up with if you were to Google what I suggested): it would help you to put your argument in perspective without having to change your opinion. Assuming you don't start frothing again...!
It's understandable, mind. I froth every time I look at anything about Nanking. And I froth every time I have to deal with some dumb **** in the school I work in where of course any discussion of their history books is not done. The worst thing isn't the out-and-out racists but the complete lack of any sense of a place in the world even among knowledgeable, intelligent, nice people: naivety is still unbelievably rife.
They really really don't know. And it's not getting any better.
Of course I don't blame the people any more than I blame my forefathers for the atrocities of the British Empire... I know they weren't personally involved. But I do blame them for their lack of interest. If I point out our policy of starving approx 30 million Indians in the famine of 1876 in response to anybody's tripe about the Empire essentially being a force for good, I expect some reasoned discussion and some thought: if I point out anything about Nanking over here to the vast majority of the people - that's it, I'm a ****ing pariah.
Anyway, I'm in danger of rambling.
It's not a racist term.
I don't know if Japanese people in Japan are so much in denial about it, but rather keep in mind, for a long time the massacre in Nanking was not taught in Japanese history books, from what I have heard.
Japan has some horrible history in its past, but every culture has examples of a horrible past. People like to make convenient comparisons, and it seems to be human nature to omit or try to lessen the horrific acts of their own ancestors. We can say the Japanese made the Nazis look tame; I doubt anyone would say that if they were one of the Jews in the Nazi camps themselves. Horrific acts of torture and murder are a part of America's past. One example: the whites who killed native Americans, killed native women and cut off their breasts to make pouches. Anyone can say this doesn't compare to the Japanese, but torture, murder, degredation and human monsters know NO national or racial bounds. If you were one of those women, or that were your mother/wife/daughter/sister, how would you have felt about it?
As an American of Japanese descent (3rd generation, grandfather arrived Stateside in 1890s) I have been blamed for Pearl Harbor ad nauseum. There are still a lot of people today who blame all persons who are Japanese for the war, even if they were not born then, or not even born in Japan! I will NOT excuse what the Japanese *Imperial Army* did during the rape of Nanking and the war!! But to blame the Japanese people in general now for what happened 60 to 70 years ago, is pretty sad. They need to be educated about it, just as we all should be educated about our pasts, both the good and the bad.
War makes animals of us all, some more than others it seems.
The shocking thing in Nanking was the degree, the quantity of atrocities commited.
Truly horrible and unexcusable.
I don't have issues with stuff like this being "rehashed" regardless of the consequences, its good for ALL to be reminded of what war does to people, of how life can be viewed as worthless and people be treated as less than human.
Those that don't learn form the past are fated to repeat it.
as pointed out, it is a very sensitive and unbearable issue about the loss of innocent civilian lives and military men.
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in 1927, a proposal to invade China.
in 1937, invasion of nan king.
in 2007, 70 years anniversary of the "incident".
chung king was the most bombed city in ww ii.
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when I visited Germany, there were monuments and museums about holocust. It was nothing German people are proud of. --
altho, some of the people/officiers were tried and hanged in nuerenberg. others ran away.however, israeli intelligence continued to find them.
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on the political side, whenever, the right wing politicians (for militarism) of Japan are gaining power, its neighboring countries will be reminded of the past of ww ii.
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after retreating from Shanghai, there were huge numbers of nationalist army assembled in nan king, however, the commanding office left "town", the army was in dissarray and surrendered their arms/weapons. and most of them were executed--
there were some resistance on the outskirts of nan jing,
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Wan jing wei headed a "government" in nan king as part of pacification movement with Japan till 1945.
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I heard of many and many resistence stories thru out China. both civilians and guerillas and military--
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I also know many songs about patriotism at the time.
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