Here is a basic video of Sil Lim Tau check it out...tell me what you think...
http://www.youtube.com/user/stan4900#p/u/4/ybN8e_bzlJY
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Here is a basic video of Sil Lim Tau check it out...tell me what you think...
http://www.youtube.com/user/stan4900#p/u/4/ybN8e_bzlJY
Compare to how Sum Nung taught it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVhRMzywe6Y
(that's Sum Dek, Sum Nung's son and the inheritor of the lineage).
I have to say both have problems imo...
The first one had no rooting or body connection/linking.
The second one... with that Wu Sau so low, is completely unrealistic as there is no way it's gonna provide any real guard against a headshot. The low position in itself creates a big time delay to protect the upper gate. I won't even bring up structural integrity.
To each his own of course.
You really can't tell much about a fellows WC by watching his SLT. It is all different than mine. So I don't think it is good to judge by looks. However, I think the dark fellow was pretty good. Real good in fact.
All forms have problems -- forms themselves are a problem. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by duende
But, if you are going to practice someone's curriculum/forms, like Sum Nung's for instance, the "test" is how well you replicate their curriculum/form. A good example is Chris Chan who does/teaches his SNT with dynamic tension. Regardless of what you believe about doing the form that way, if you call what you do Chris Chan WCK and then do soft serve WCK, it is not a good representation of Chan's curriculum.
And, fwiw, wu sao is not a "guard" against a head shot. Nor is it something to "protect the upper gate".
As a tool in itself it is the protecting hand or guard that comprises the wc second line of defense. As in two hand Jong sau/2-line defense and earth triangle structure.Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
For gate theory to function properly... The guard hand has to reside in the proper time and space. Other wise timing, structure and positioning will be compromised and faced with over coming bad habits such as collapsed structure and timing delays... Meaning further distance to travel to cover space.
Two-line Jong sau is where all other wc upper gate defenses are "born". Without this body mechanic awareness, one always trying to make up for weak structure, bad positioning, and off timing.
You could fertilize a garden with this stuff!Quote:
Originally Posted by duende
But you are very good at regurgitating what you have been told.
Obviously you are defensive due to your own attachments. This is understandable considering the amount of time you put into this system. But by your own admission... It was not functionable. This is one of the reasons why.
A boxer must always keep his hands up. Wu Sau as part of Two line Jong Sau is not so different.
You can justify techniques all you want as being true to a form etc... But that's BS. Techniques should serve and moreover PROVE the concept from which they were conceived. A low protecting hand does not protect anything and is garbage IMO.
How is what I said "defensive"? LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by duende
Yes, I've only been practicing WCK almost 30 years, and put "in more time" than you or your sifu. :) But that is neither here nor there. I never said my WCK isn't functional. In fact, I credit Robert with helping me make my WCK functional (I wasn't able tio make it functional until after I trained with Robert).Quote:
This is understandable considering the amount of time you put into this system. But by your own admission... It was not functionable. This is one of the reasons why.
WCK is not boxing. Two line jong sao is nonsense.Quote:
A boxer must always keep his hands up. Wu Sau as part of Two line Jong Sau is not so different.
I'll give you a hint -- in the SNT, we do the tan sao, fook sao, and wu sao in the SBF section. All those ACTIONS occur after contact, and are bridge hands (hands in contact with an opponent).
There is are no concepts. Concepts are bullsh1t. Wu sao is an action, a contact action (you are doing something with it). There are no passive hands in WCK.Quote:
You can justify techniques all you want as being true to a form etc... But that's BS. Techniques should serve and moreover PROVE the concept from which they were conceived. A low protecting hand does not protect anything and is garbage IMO.
When someone like yourself foolishly suggests planting diamonds to use as fertilizer merely to sound clever and insult... Then it's safe to say you're not only being reactionary and defensive, but talking out of your a$$!Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Exactly... You've said numerous times that you couldn't make the WC you studied for twenty years work. How is that functional?? Then miraculously, after some long-distance seminar training with Robert everything makes sense... How is that functional?Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Obviously you need to study more with Robert, because you have no idea what your talking about in these matters... and need MUCH more time because a low Wu Sau is NOT FUNCTIONAL and leaves you open to attack.
As for your delusions of grandeur... I doubt even Robert can help you with that.
My Sifu has been teaching for more than thirty years. And not one of the dozens upon dozens of Sifu's/instructor's from WC, TCMA, and Non-TCMA's he's touched hands with would ever question his skill like you do. Not even your own Sifu Robert Chu.
So stop being a putz! We're all over being embarrassed for you.
Wow...Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
I'll leave that one alone. No sense in tearing apart a tired old person riddled with delusion.
No ****. But if they are residing in a low position, with inherently weak structure already in place... That's a time delay. Therefore upon contact when the technique is called into action it will be severely handicapped.Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
You argue just to argue.
Sad... Robert's not the only person who could be your teacher.
Yes, it is a guarding and protecting hand. This is part of the action, a part that set-ups the contact action.Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Structure is alive, structure is energy.
This obviously is something you still need to learn.
Life is too short, and I'd much rather spend more time playing guitar then waste time trading insults with you.
Let's just agree to disagree. I honestly wish you the best.
How could more guitar ever be a wrong answer?Quote:
Originally Posted by duende
I prefer more cowbell, but to each his own :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Wayfaring
All that stuff -- wing chun 2nd line of defense, 2 line jong sao, earth triangle structure, proper time and space, gate theory, etc. -- are not diamonds but nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by duende
Wu sao is an action/movement not a position/shape (you don't hold it out there as a "guard"). That movement/action has an optimal path. It is also a transition (a way to move from A to B). These are illustrated in the SNT. What wu sao does is protect your structure (wu) by transitioning in a certain, specific way -- keeping your elbow down, moving in the center, etc. It is an example of the kuit chum jang sao jong.
An example of this is doing continuous pak saos on the dummy -- the "retreating" hand (after having pak'ed) is a wu sao, it follows the path illustrated in the SNT, low, underneath the outgoing pak sao. But it doesn't come to stop or stay like some prayer palm (in WCK we "lien juk bat ting lao", train to continue without stopping or staying), but continues on as it is a transition to the next movement, a pak sao in this case. But, if you took a picture at the right moment, you would see the shape commonly associated with the wu sao.
The chain punches, lien wan choi, are punches that combine with wu sao (the "retreating" hand) - if you stopped the action at the right moment, again you would see the hand poised in front of the chest like the shape associated with wu sao.
Holding a "prayer palm" in front of your chest -- or worse, face -- as "protection" is very low-level WCK.
You don't know what you are talking about. I visited Robert many times, and we would train, I'd take what he taught me, go back and train it, then return. As I have said, I was lacking in several fundamentals, like body structure and the faat mun, that are necessary to make WCK functional.Quote:
Exactly... You've said numerous times that you couldn't make the WC you studied for twenty years work. How is that functional?? Then miraculously, after some long-distance seminar training with Robert everything makes sense... How is that functional?
See above where I explain what wu sao is -- does your hand coming back low when you do chain punches, for example, leave you open to attack?Quote:
Obviously you need to study more with Robert, because you have no idea what your talking about in these matters... and need MUCH more time because a low Wu Sau is NOT FUNCTIONAL and leaves you open to attack.
You're welcome to your opinion. But it is clear that once again you are making blind assumptions based on your own experiences and not giving any thought to what I actually wrote.Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Otherwise, you would not write what you have below...
No one here has said Wu sau is merely a static position or shape. These are YOUR words and YOUR understanding based on YOUR need to be always right and ignorant of the greater knowledge of other's.Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
And btw... the optimal path YOU describe above is clearly not present in the video your posted. As it leaves the entire upper gate vulnerable to attack. What's "optimal" about that??
I'm not talking shapes here, I'm talking TIMING.
Practicing forms one way, and then applying the techniques completely different is nonsense!
So basically for your chain punch scenario here to work in tandem with your "optimal" Wu Sau... what you are essentially saying here is that you advocate chain punching the human gate. Leaving your guard wide open on the upper gate... Not very smart. Won't work against any boxer. Doesn't matter how you "retreat", you're gonna get knocked the F' out.Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Talk about nonsense!
More ludicrous assumptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Great... I'm glad you were open to receive some help. One should never stop learning imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
So now you are either flip flopping or agreeing with me and the martial knowledge that the Wu Sau was too low in the vid you posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
If you compare videos of Sil Lim Tau with in the Sum Nung Lineage. All of them look different compared to each other. Same thing with Ip Man lineages.
Check these videos out and discuss how they are different and similiar!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPHZ0xrd5fY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prTFbXgIM4Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giVMjnCkTBo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNEBr8XVi3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaGnTqk_FlU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybN8e_bzlJY
All of these videos are from the Yuen Kay San/Sum Nung lineage. But each Sifu adds there own innovations. Just as Bruce Lee innovated his wing chun so does every body else. So if you study Wing Chun you will see that which each sifu of the same lineage the forms will not be an exact match. Some things and principles will be constant. Its the Principles that make the lineage and not the hand posistions. Some do there wu sau fok sau thrice hands at chest level. So that you are reeling and pushing from the middle dan tien. Others do so at face level. Both are good depending on the attack. But a form is just a form to develop certain aspects of your WC. If you want to have proper technique when fighting one must practice drills and fighting. You drill each technique over and over again until its apart of conscious thought. An you also apply each technique in actual phyiscal sparring. Thats when how it is to be used comes out. Wu Sau has more than one usage. Same as fok sau and tan sau. You may use them differently. In some cases if you use the tan sau in certain way it is called a different hand like Tok Sau. But in either case its all from ones own perception which undoubtely stems from your training or lack there of.
As for Terrence Niehoff. My Sihing as offer you a Challenge to train and spar.
anytime you want to see how good his boxing punches are or even test his WC attack and defense you can meet him for free at Forest park, Heman Park,Rabe Park, Miller Park or any other St.Louis park your familiar with. Give me a name and number to reach you...an i will give the info to Stan. An we can video tape you sparring with him and you can post that up saying how well you fare with his power. Because I will tell you that man has alot power even when he is not throwing with all his might. His power will make you back up. I like to see you stand there while he feeds you punches!
Clarence,
You've got to be kidding. Just look at how your "sihing" moves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY
Seriously. You really think this is good? That was pure crap. That isn't even good beginner level WCK. It's bad beyond words! Everyone was off balance, they were both out of range, there was no power, what was being practiced was sh1t (if you cross pak like that you WILL be KOed, that's a REALLY bad habit to teach) -- and Stan's son is backing up because he was afraid of being hit (which tells me he doesn't spar) and has no skill or body connection. It was sh1t responding to sh1t.
Just by looking at Stan I can tell that he isn't even in shape to spar. And I can tell by how he moves, he doesn't have the basic skills needed to spar. He would get seriously hurt really sparring.
Stop fantasizing. "Your people" are "not about sparring" -- if they were, "your people" wouldn't put up this nonsense but put up sparring clips. We both know that I have intimate knowledge of "your people". Look at Stan's own description of the clip you posted: "We are applying the Si Lim Tao techniques in combat." WTF? He thinks that is "combat"?
As I have told you, I think -- from knowing a great deal about your group, and from our conversations on and off the forum -- that you guys are nuttier than squirrel poop. I want nothing to do with crazy people since IME (and I deal with them on a professional level all the time) they end up doing crazy things which only causes grief for anyone around them. The idea of out of shape, unskilled people getting together and 'sparring" (and God knows what you think that is) in public parks -- which btw is against the law in St. Louis, but nutty people never think of such things -- only shows how nutty you guys are.
I told you before, if you think you guys are good, there is a very easy way to find out -- go visit any decent MMA or MT gym and ask to spar. But I got to tell you, most reputable gyms won't let you spar unless you can prove that you are in physical condition to spar. For example, where I train you would need to show that you can do 50 push ups at a clip, 200 sit ups, 20 minutes of straight cardio (running, rope, etc.), etc. before they would let you spar.
FWIW - Sum Dek is doing it the way Sum Nung did it, the way every direct student of Sum Nung I've had the fortune to meet does it.
If you see a Siu Lien Tao that's substantively different than that, it's not what Sum Nung taught. (And no, there are no secret versions).
Also, the Wu Sao is done like that in YKS/SN. Every system is a cohesive whole and any piece taken out absent that whole probably won't make sense by itself, especially when interpreted in the context of a different system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneritchie
Great to see Rene is here.
Here are my 5 cents.
1,
There are signatures of every lineages which could be identify and look for. But if those signature is missing then one is no longer doing the same thing.
I myself do not buy in such claim as every master add in their stuffs or to be innovation as Bruce Lee etc.
Form is not for innovation and creativity. There are purpose and reason for doing things.
2, according to Yik Kam text of 1850 the Wu Sao in SLT in fact needs to be done as in YKS/SN. The reason is simply there are certain key considerations in term or body, mind, and breathing which needs to be satisfied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
IMHO,
1, I think you could phrase you words better. let's not get into personal.
2, technically What the clip shows, even thought could be looked common these days for WCner , it is not showing WCK.
but some type of beginer level of Nam Kuen two hand fighting.
As for the reach out, the issue is lots of people using the reach/ stretch out to generate power in order to feel secure on handling the in coming hand. and that turn into dead trap for take down.
3, That SLT practice got a problem.
and this problem is also common these days for WCners.
and that is to let loose the different part of body going different way or get into chaos. Some get this bad habit from trying to imitate the Chen Taiji's reel silk.
instead of reel silk, it turns into a under damp or in stability dissaster.
Stan is at my house right now. He has somethings he wishes to share about some of your comments. His page is not approved yet so He is typing on my account. Anyway Here are his views to your negative comments.
Stan's response;
First of All Rene Ritche. I read your book Yuen Kay San. I thought we were brothers. All one family. But since we are not this is what I think of you! Your horse stance is weak! I can tell you do your Sil Lim Tao real slow. So I know you can't defend against an American Boxer from the Hood. They would hand your hat to you. They would jab at you an as soon as you would try to defend they would pull it back and punch you with the other hand. An when you try to run in with chasing step they would be backing up striking you in the face. Your Sil Lim Tao is done slow. So your fighting would be slow. You don't even understand this yet. An if you say you do, You haven't met a good boxer that can jab. We always train in boxing gyms in the inner city of St.Louis such as wholes community center and tandy community center. They all had golden glove boxers constantly working out. The Likes of Leon Spinx, Michael Spinx, Hands of Stone, and Big hands would all throw punches at us. An all we did would use SLT to defend ourselves. In your book Yuen Kay San chapter six page #56 Extinguishing the candle Flame. Your student is doing it at three inches. Thats for Babies. A real Expert can extinguish a candle flame from four feet away. I know you can't because it aint in the book. You all are just babies. Anyone can tell I was doing Wing Chun, what makes it Wing Chun are the hand techniques such as Pak Sao, Tan Sao, Bong Sao. Everyone does their forms differently. But your making it seem like everybodies form is the same. You are a liar. You know everyones forms is not the same.
Terrence Niehoff Your just fake. Where is your youtube video. You don't have one do you? Your just amateur. When you do the form Sil Lim Tao, each hand technique is done with one hand with the exception of one section. That is the double Bil Sao section. I know you don't know what you watching. So you just think Juijitsu is the Ultimate Art. But it is not. It Just a wrestling art. Alot of those guys are getting knocked by those who aren't that good of a boxer. You are not qualified to critique my hand techniques. Until you post your youtube video. Because I know how its going to look. Your going to be rolling around on the ground on top of each other butts. Like ***s.
as you say, it should always be a presursor to another movement, but it does NEED to be there. try doing pak with and without wu. it IS far stronger with...Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031779]
I'll give you a hint -- in the SNT, we do the tan sao, fook sao, and wu sao in the SBF section. All those ACTIONS occur after contact, and are bridge hands (hands in contact with an opponent).
QUOTE]
again, i respectfully disagree. they are, like Kev Gedhill describes, different ways of punching thrown BEFORE contact to cut the bridge. IMO
I have been told that most 'old time' sifu would change their forms slightly to put their own stamp on things...Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
how many here practice a synthesised version of their forms they have been taught? i know i do. they may pass the original and their own on in conjunction with each other...
agreed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
i am taught that the first section is slow, and the second and third are done in combat speed. got a feeling that this is similar to YKS thought too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
Thank you for proving my point. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
LSWCTN1 Thanks for your comments. My Sifu taught me to do Sil Lim Tao ten times. But each time I do it a little differently. He taught me to do it slow with light force. Medium with medium force and fast and hard. So that way I practice it to get increased benefits. But When I am ill or not feeling well or injured I practice slow until I am well enough to proceed to speed. But ne way Thanks for you insight. Yes the Wu sau Fok Sau section is suspose to be slow due to fact that particular section is also qi gung/chi kung. So its done slow to developed Chi, Soft energy or Internal strength. But any way thank you for your non-bias and non-bashing comment.
For all who read the last post under my user name. That was my Sihing typing until his account is activiated he used my mines to write a response. Anyway I shared with him the comments on his youtube page. Thats why he responded. Before he wasnt even on this forum but think to likes of Terrence Niehoff I think he will become and active partcipant. Thanks for the publicity His videos are getting alot of hits and recognition from authenic martial artist from the main land.
As a matter of fact I have no idea how Terrence even knew about his youtube video because I just saw the day T made the post about it. Wow..i guess Terrence is really looking for some YKS wc in st.louis?
Hey Terrence have you ever trained with Robert McField?
Also have you ever met or sparred with any of his students?
He does know that the recognition is for, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
I've seen GENUINE YKS/SN WCK. There is none in St. Louis. I already told you that, Clarence. Eddie Ma was a fraud. He didn't really know YKS WCK (he knew some parts and those really poorly). If you got out and trained with some genuine YKS people (like Rene), you'd know that I am telling you the truth.Quote:
As a matter of fact I have no idea how Terrence even knew about his youtube video because I just saw the day T made the post about it. Wow..i guess Terrence is really looking for some YKS wc in st.louis?
I know all about that bizarre group, thank you very much -- haven't we had off-forum discussions where I told you about McField, Buschard, Mohammed/James, John, Burnside, etc.?Quote:
Hey Terrence have you ever trained with Robert McField?
Also have you ever met or sparred with any of his students?
Why don't you ask Eddie Ma about the one time he and I met, and how I told him to his face that he was a fraud, and what happened after that?
You guys don't have the actual YKS/Cheung Bo san sik, you haven't learned the proper forms, you don't know and haven't learned the progressive training drills unique to YKS WCK, you don't have the rest of the YKS curriculum. Not only that, but what you do have and the way you "interpret" it is completely foreign to the way the YKS curriculum is taught (the "pack sow jut sao cycle"! LOL!). Rene, who was trained by a direct, senior student of Sum, and with Sum himself in China, who has met many direct students of Sum, and is arguably one of most knowledgeable and respected of YKS WCK practitioners in the world, tells you that you're wrong(as I'm sure you don't know, Sum was very particular and insistent that the forms be performed in a very specific way). But do you listen? No. Instead we get a rant about how he is a liar, blah, blah, blah.
Rene definitely has the authentic YKS system and is a leading authority on the system. His Sifu was one of Sum Nung's oldest and closest students. Rene even went back to China to visit his Si Gung, Sum Nung.
From what I can see of the Siu Lien Tao set in the first link, there needs a lot of work.
I already answered this but wanted to add for those following this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
Here's McField's school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kncruQcv40o
Take note of the comment by "Stan".
I can't be completely sure, but I think I saw Zorro in this video :D:D:DQuote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
I just vomited in my mouth a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
That is terrible.
CAn I get a simple yes or no to my questions?Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Hey Terrence have you ever trained with Robert McField?
Also have you ever met or sparred with any of his students?
No. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
Why would anyone in their right mind want to train with McField? Or with any of its spawn?Quote:
Hey Terrence have you ever trained with Robert McField?
Also have you ever met or sparred with any of his students?
BTW, do you guys also include Choi Lee Fut into your "training" like McF? I recall how he did that after he got kicked in the head at the karate tourney (when trying to move in with triangle steps and his hands low). It was after that he began saying that WCK was "lacking" in long range techniques, and so "added" CLF (which he didn't learn from a competent instructor either). Or, did you guys stay pure to the Eddie Ma stuff?
Yoshiyahu,
If I am your defend lawyer, I would say you cant win the case on this WCK stuffs. It is really sad that sometimes things we did for long time turn out not what is it. We need to accept that and move forward, getting stuck or resistance the reality is both very painful and damaging.
As Robert said above, lots of work needs to be done.
That is a reality. let go the past and start a new chapter with learning from a different legitimate sifu and dont fight it because fighting the reality is just wasting of energy and put one into depression.
WCK is about liberation or flow; and WCK is about not get stuck and trying to brute force things according to one's like or dislike.
It is always better to learn the reality early and the future is always an open door. So walk out.
the wu sau sequence in SLT that Sum Dek performs is not meant to simulate a real fight. the purpose of that whole sequence is isometric training so that you can learn to keep your elbow in hte center of your bodyQuote:
Originally Posted by duende
thats why it is done so slow. do you notice it takes up 80% of the time he performs SLT?
Isometric tension is the way we do kung lik as well in Samuel Kwok Ip Man Wing Chun.
And lots of it.
Good stuff.
From what I see here, Master Kwok has done alot of it, as well in bagua and chen taiji
http://usefulnessisinemptiness.blogs...-kwok-wan.html
Thank you for your honest opinion and sharing with my the answers to questions...as for choy li fut. My sifu never shared any choy li fut with me...he did show me a form from the tiger and crane.Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
AS I have been told that the Wing Chun Fut which is now taught came later. At first it was purely wing chun and those who wanted to learn Choy Li Fut did so at a separate class. But it could be his interest in Choy Li Fut was because in hong kong it is said the Choy Li Fut guys beat up on the WC guys...Me particularly i dont care for choy li fut..but i may change that opinion later who knows!
Clarence, I KNOW McField. I know all about his spousal abuse, about the crack, the DEA, him getting run out of St. Louis, etc. I know about him sharing the pipe with some of his students. I know he has absolutely no WCK skill, and never learned YKS WCK.
So tell me, why would anyone want to train with such a guy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Now Niehoff have we met before? How do you know the name clarence? do i know your personally or something because i always go by hebrew name.
I never posted clarence on here anywhere...but u use it frequently as if we ran into each other before? Do you know me from somewhere?