Any thoughts?
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Any thoughts?
Not sure why the ban on ma huang. I am unfamiliar with it's properties as a drug.
But ephedra I understand. It's a relatively short process from ephedra to methamphetamine and frankly if that can be kept off the street then that's a good thing.
cheers
What are they? I've never heard of either of them.
well, both contain the drug ephedrine.
I believe that they are both used for the most part in weight loss regimens.
apparently, ma huang got the ban because it contains ephedrine.
ephedrine is essentially "speed". and is used for a variety of things like bee sting allergy or to raise metabolic rate in dieting programs.
It's pretty dangerous stuff if it is not used with care. And like I mentioned earlier, it's not a big leap from ephedrine to methamphetamine. meth is a huge problem and has devastating long term effects in users.
It actually creates little holes throughout the brain tissue. It eats away at the brain until eventual death in heavy users...if the heart attack doesn't kill them first.
cheers
Ma Huang is Chinese for Ephedra.
As for the eating holes in the brain, sorry, it does not do that. It's an herb often used in Chinese sports perfromance formulas. It boost adrenilin, and is most known for dialating the blood vessles in the lungs, there by improving breathing capactiy. In high doses though, it becomes a vascular constrictive agent, and causes high blood pressure.
The problem is in the US, it is used as a weight loss drug. Unfortunetly in order to get that effect you have to basically over dose yourself on a consistant basis. Matters are made worse when mixed with caffine as it is vascoconstrictive, and has an enhancing effect on the herb. The raw herb taken as a tea before you train is very safe, and gives you a nice boost. I have been useing it for years prior to my own practice with no problems so long as I make the tea from the raw dried herb. I had some real scares with the pill forms years ago, and a really nasty one with one of those "Stacks" that mix Ephedra, Guranna (Herbal caffiene) and Willow bark (Aspirine). I got the skakes, and my heart was pounding so hard I though it was going to burst, I felt queasy and was having dizzy and near black out spells for hours. This was with HALF the bottles recomended dosage. If I had taken the whole thng as recomended on the bottle, I'm sure I would have died.
My studies on the subject lead me to believe that the refined concentraited ephedrine mixed with caffiene is the dangerous mix. Mahuang (Ephedra) as a pure raw dried herb made into a tea is a refreshing, stimulating tonic that is totally safe. I would have liked to see this be a ban of the Ephedra/caffiene/aspirine stack commonly found in fat burners like "Hydroxi Cut" and other such products, and not the actual herb itself.
rd-
it's the meth that eats holes or rather creates "pitting" in the brain tissue.
ephedra is a natural product. It is when it is chemically altered into meth where the problem occurs.
meth is made from ephedra
cheers
funny little factoid:
The US military has passed out meth (crank) to soldiers working particularly long shifts/missions. A buddy of mine was in Korea and used it all the time there. Kinda scary...3 days awake and then a week of sleep.
RD, I'm pretty sure KL is correct in that it is some of the stuff added to ephadrine that kills you in the long run. I'm sure IL has banned it mostly because they are root ingredients in X and X is the 'baddie' of the moment in youth.
yep, "go" pills have been used in the military for a looooooong time.
I've seen them included with foot soldier kits from WW1.
But the earlier versions used benzidrene, and I think that even today it is benzidrine that is used while ephedra is used for allergy control, especially with venomous stings such as bees or wasps.
The pills the soldiers take have clear warnings to not exceed dosage etc etc because when one does overdose on these drugs there is a great chance for auditory and visual hallucienations.
cheers
i probably shouldn't give details about my buddy but when he came back and told me about it, it was the first time I heard the word 'crank'. It wasn't an 'official' dispersal.:) Of course, he wasn't where his orders said he was supposed to be anyway...
RD, I'm pretty sure KL is correct in that it is some of the stuff added to ephadrine that kills you in the long run.
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Yes, it's caffine. Caffine and Ephedrine are a deady combination. I think the new law (As I understand it) is misguided. It should ban the mix of the two. I mean ephedrine is the man ingredient in Sudephed (The over the counter decongestant). I have never heard of Sudephed ever harming anyone.
It's the Caffine because it's greatly enhances the effect of the Ephedrine, but cancelles out the localised vasciodialaton effect in the coranary artieries, and the lungs thus boosting blood pressure off the charts and risking death, especially in the mega doseges found in those products. Also, the ephedrine is refined and concentrated pharmaseutically.
In the raw herb, there are about a dozen different constituants, ephidrine is only one of many. Even in larger doseges of the raw herb, the amount of actuall ephedrine is not all that significant.
A 1 to 1 mix of Mahuang and Rhemenia is tonifying to the Kidneys, and I have found it to be effective in helping my Gout problems as well as improving both my training time, and intensity levels. Hard workouts often seems to cause Gout pain, but the above mix with a nice tall glass of Cherry cider prevents that.
A drug that has been linked to 17 deaths,thatīs enough for me to ban it.
Iīd ban about any "herbal","natural" or related drug though,which has not gone trough rigorous testing.
Be wary of non-regulated ones.
Various sources recognize this drug as both controversial in terms of supposed effect,but know itīs dangers.
Information relevant to-.
http://www.hcrc.org/announce/archive4.html
http://www.herbalwatch.com/Alerts/herbal_ephedra.html
http://www.kbmoll.com/invest/iv_meta.htm
http://www.dietfraud.com/alerts.html
It is important to realize that folklore wisdom,referring to logical fallacy of "argument to antiquity" does not mean that youīll be out on solid ground using unknown drugs.
(Yes,not many might have used real medication together with herbal supplements.We realize this interaction may be the cause of fatality/problem,however,this is but another reason to take a serious stand)
G'Day
Too bad illionois has followed other states ( Texas, New York, I'm sure there are others) in banning ma huang/ephedra since it can be broken down into ephedrine. ( I sped read through Royal Dragon's openning so I don't know if it's ephedrine or ma huang that is "off the shelves" However, even if it was ephedrine, ma huang would be in danger since it does contain ephedrine.) Crank, meth is made from all sorts of ****- over the counter-cold remedies, for example, which are not being taken off the shelf-and to come down hard on an herb is typical US legal mentality.
Ma huang is a warming diaphoretic and is the herb of choice to be combined with other herbs to treat cold damage and resolve the muscles. Depending on the formulas and other herbs used it can induce or stop sweating. Ma huang combination and cinnamin combination are the two classic formulas that come to mind.
The ephedrine that can be extracted from ma huang is only 1 % of the total constituents of the natural product. The plant has other constituents ( 99%) that offset negative side effects.
To the Chinese, ma huang's main purpose is not as a sports drink, it's to treat colds, cold type asthma.
Go to www.mercola.com. An interesting article that gives figures to the 250,000 docter induced deaths a year that occur in the US, the nation with the most expensive form of health care in the world, got to research this and that, make money for drug companies, and rank highest in infant mortality among modern industrial nations. See where the babies die see where the ghettos are. This article was printed in JAMA.
The point is that traditional medicine works within it's capabilities; it's also very inexpensive to administer. And believe me, if there were 250,000 deaths due to acupuncture, herbs, massage, reike, nutritional advice a year, the AMA and MDs would shut traditional medicine down.
Well got to do my stances, body exercise and jurus.Pilgrim
The site you posted seems a little controversial,if not actually harsh bogus.
I have been reading it a bit,and among some other things it does hint at anti-vaccine propaganda.
This kind of junk seems to be passed on by quackers (this includes chiropractics etc.)
Some vaccine related information;
http://www.ncahf.org/search/webglimp...&query=vaccine
Site includes a link to a supposed benefits of a bogus therapy (TT)
http://www.mercola.com/2000/june/17/prayer.htm
Additionally,there seems to be some pseudoscientifical information on milk (this evil,?unnatural? product.Referring to some milk-derived product here)
Here; http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/formula_diabetes.htm
Iīve noticed a surge of milk-hate in controversial&quackery sources,of course unnecessarily strict vegetarians or the misinformed may be led to this belief.
The site does not seem to offer a decent reference to any particular study.It tries to be scientific,drawing conclusions from a mice related study (however,how good a mice test may ever be,it is still too brave to draw conclusions as history shows)
It leaves some question on whether it is trying to pass on that milk is dangerous or that a milk related product is (in one case)
Interesting discussion on milk fraud;
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...threadid=20056
Did copy some links from there;
http://www.acsh.org/press/editorial...milk020100.html
http://www.acsh.org/publications/reports/milkado.html
http://www.acsh.org/publications/reports/milk99.html
http://www.acsh.org/press/releases/milk100699.html
"Emotional freedom technique-psychological acupressure"
Pseudoscience guaranteed;
http://www.mercola.com/forms/eftcourse.htm
Fear over cell phones,EM-fields...
http://www.mercola.com/2000/may/14/c...nes_cancer.htm
Debunking;
http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/quackery/id1.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/cell_suit.html
(Might collect more data later)
This is not all,but some things that struck me.
My mom has always been a total health nut, meaning she follows every new trend religiously. Drove me nuts. During college she got me a job at a friend's health food store. The owner gave me a bunch of samples of herbal products to try out so I could recommend them to customers. Biggest one was this diet drug called PowerUP, with ephedra as the main ingredient. "Take as much of this stuff as you want," the guy said, "It's herbal, there's no side effects."
So I took the full dosage of PowerUP and spent the day feeling awful: hyped-up, out of breath, heart pounding, headache. I threw all the samples out.
Didn't last long there, anyway. The owner wasn't happy that I refused to tell customers to "take all they want" in terms of dosage. So we parted ways.
I guess it didn't help that I made a point of wearing T-shirts with logos like "Slimfast" and "Joe Camel" to work, bring DQ for lunch, etc. I just enjoyed watching him twitch. :D
I haven't read all the links, but I do know Milk causes more mucus production, and lessens breathing efficiency. Many athletes avoid it because of that.
Claims about milkīs unwanted effects (sidenote;at least here around,milk used to be promoted as a great health drink)
are not a few,ranging from completely irrational (milk harms bones :p ) to something like this.
As far as I know,none of these effects have been proven for real.
When it comes to proven,heresay to the direction of "this is not heresay,I heard them say so" does not qualify. :D
Reasons to despise milk may be cultural,for dietary reasons or shall I say,evolutionary geographical causes (disability to digest lactose)
" "It's herbal, there's no side effects." "
No side-effects may often be equal to no effects at all.A potential drug can/will cause side-effects,but this is normal for a drug strong enough to actually work.
In my younger days I used to eat plenty of ephedra... Never caused a heart attack. Wouldnt touch the sh!t now tho.
Some of the backlash against milk is pretty irrational. I still put milk in cereal & coffee, though not as much & I don't drink whole glasses of it anymore. As I get older my tolerance for it seems less (I gets the gas ;) ).
I don't think milk itself is the problem, the processing of it is -- from overdosing the cows on hormones & antibiotics to pasteurizing & ****genizing the product so much that few of its original nutrients survive to reach your body. You get the additives - vitamin D etc. but that may be about it. (Well, the milkfat too.)
Meth is NOT made from Ephedra, although I suppose you COULD make it from ephedra.
Depending on the synthesis used, Meth is either made from phenyl 2 propanone and methyl amine or, more usually these days, reduction of pseudo-ephedrine or ephedrine via hydroiodic acid. I should point out that condensation of P2P and methylamine yields d,l meth so you have to take twice as much for the same effect as one of the isomers is not really very biologically active.
Most times, it's made from p-fed. It's more readily available. It doesn't matter which one you start with, you get the same isomer of meth out as reduction of the alcohol group to a simple H-C bond removes the chiral center.
You would have to run an alkoloid extraction on ephedra and probably run a vacuum powered fractional distillation to get the p-fed and ephedrine out of the ephedra. Why bother?
You know way to much about this stuff :eek: :D
The government is here to save the day! Thank you, Uncle Sam, for protecting me from hurting myself. If you weren't around, I'd probably be shooting heroin everyday and having ephedra-caused heart attacks. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
//sarcasm off
Are you a chemist, MP, or a drug dealer/maker?
MP=Modern Grappeler. This sugjests to me he's in Law enforcement. Those guys like anything that helps them ground and cuff thier perps. and it would explain why he knows so much. Of course, so would being a drug manufacturer. :D :eek: :p
It was bound to happen. If people would follow directions, we wouldn't have this problem, IMO. you have to be responsible when dealing with something like ephedra.
It was bound to happen. If people would follow directions, we wouldn't have this problem, IMO. you have to be responsible when dealing with something like ephedra.
Reply]
The problem is the directions on the bottles are deadly. Take a look at "Hydroxi Cut". You've got a product that mixes Caffine* and Ephedra* (A deadly combination from the start) that ON THE BOTTLE recomends very dangerous doseges.
It recommends as much as 4 capsuels 3X daily. Each 4 Capsel contains 334 mg of Mahuang, and 910mg of Guranna, or 1032mg and 2730mg, (respectively), DAILY for extended periods of time 4 weeks and beyond according to the bottle.
When "I" took this stuff, I did HALF of that one time, and thought I my heart was going to burst, had near blackout spells all day, dizzyness, buzzing in my ears shakeyness and over all weakness, and severe insomnia that night (I took it in the morning). I don't see how someone with any sort of heart condition could survive it at the dose "I" took, let alone double that, THREE TIMES in one day that the bottle recomends.
If you comapare, I think if you make a Tea out of 3500MG's of raw herb, by the time you finnish boiling it all down and such, you have less than 350mg's of actuall ephedrine, and there is other stuff mixed in to that, so it's actually less. This is ALL you need to boost athletic performance, and you can barley feel it at that (like a good shot of Ginseng at best). You have to watch your performance numbers to read the effect. I got these numbers out of my Herbal Materia Medica.
Hydroxi cut recomends more than 3 times what the medical journal recomends, AND it has a Caffine substance added to greatly enhance the action of the Mahuang so in effect, you are getting close to something in the area of 10 times the recomended dosage or effect (my guess). Then they wonder why people are dying from this stuff. The problem, is it does not work as a weight loss supplement in lower doses, only gives an athletic boost.
*Guranna = Caffine
*Mahuang= Ephedra
I'll have to stock up on Yohimbe before they figure out that it has ephedra-like metabolism-boosting properties. It also pumps up your ummm... labido, which can be a distracting effect.
Way less than 350mg (which is a SUBSTANTIAL dose). Standardized Ephedra weighs in at about 4% Ephedrine.
yeah it's apparently the "fast track" to meth now (ephedrine). several companies have actually started making their OTC cold products more difficult to break down into their respective components supposedly because of it. folks would go to the store to buy chunks of blister packs to use in their labs or whatnot.
by the way, here's an interesting (but LONG) article about meth for anyone curious. i'm not sure i agree with it all but the author brings up some interesting points...
http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id1950/pg1/
lol
mp does know too much about this. Methinks he is a corrupt cop with a drug lab.
:)
They still sell ephedra products like mad down here. I know a few stupid f*cks that drink on it... *sigh*....
4%?? I did my math based on 10 %, so theres is less than even I originally thought. At 4%, my initial figure of 350mg's becomes a paltry 140mg's. This means that "Hydroxi Cut" recomends over SEVEN TIMES the doesage recomended in the Materia Medica. AND, they include an agent (Guranna/Caffine) that greatly enhances the effect and dangers as well. Because of that, I bet we could functionally have a dose that is twice the 7+.........or in other words, possibly 14 times what's recomended in the Materia Medica.
That is just criminal in my opinion. No wonder it was such a problem.
Hydroxy Cut's original formula is going off the market to be replaced by an ephedra free verison. This goes for a number of other weightloss brands.
I see it as Sevenstar did a bunch of posts back. Dumb people screw it up for the people who use it with responsibility. Same went for Kava Kava.
Cheers
or krav maga.
I'm wondering if it will work without the ephedra.
Seruiously, where does it end? The herb itself is not very harmful form what I can see, so long as it's not concentraited down and mixed with Caffine like these fat loss herbal stack products. Why is everyone banning it? Wouldn't it make more sense to ban the combination?
Royal,
That because politicans know what is best for you and me.
Would you care for some soylent green?
Man did I sound like a liberal above or what;)
someone is probably losing money somewhere. ;)
The AMA is very threatened by Chinese Herbology and has a lot of money. Same with the pharmaceutical industry.
As Royal Dragon stated, the problem isn't the Ma Huang, it is the way it is used and combined.
Time to protect people from their own stupidity.
The problem with today's society is that we aren't stopping the Darwinian principals of survival of the fittest. We keep saving the lives of the idiots and they keep procreating.
nah, just spending it on a lobbyist to further an agenda. ;)Quote:
Originally posted by red5angel
someone is probably losing money somewhere. ;)
Has anyone seen the possible "fat tax"? I am not sure if this is just Minnesota or not but they are seriously considering putting a tax on foods with a certain fat content!
Thats all I need is someone telling me what I can eat, or making me pay more for food because some fat@ss out there can't control himself. I don't need any regulating, why should I have to pay? On top of that I am free thinking human being with my own idea on how to live.
err, except that you contradict yourself.... I'll agree to what you were trying to say....Quote:
The problem with today's society is that we aren't stopping the Darwinian principals of survival of the fittest. We keep saving the lives of the idiots and they keep procreating.
And if you didn't put that n't in there, I'd say I couldn't have said it better myself.:D
What is next, them not letting us have chinese only martial arts tournies in NY...... Oh, wait.
Them not structuring the budg....errr, maybe I won't go there this time.
Ma Huang is good for some stuff, bad with others, they could have just banned ephedra or something....