http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/ezin...hp?article=710
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Yes, very good.
Interesting question. I would hazard to guess that the way a person answers this question would be a good look into what they wish to gain from thier studies.Quote:
So, the question that entered my head – again, for the one-millionth time: How can these two systems, traditional martial arts and reality fighting, exist in the same world? Why don't the traditional arts just adopt newer and better techniques? Why do we still have more than one martial art?
Because we get something from those techniques that you either don't see or don't apriciate. And throwing kicks with hands down in my school is asking to be paired up with a student instructor who has instructions to "show" you why this is a bad idea. ;):DQuote:
Using the same logic, why don't traditional martial arts just throw away the chop, the hammer strike, the finger spear, the monkey-brain, the slapping open-hand kick-block, or at least stop throwing their hands down when they kick? Why don't they see that none of these techniques work, and that they should stop practicing them?
"Using the same logic, why don't traditional martial arts just throw away the chop, the hammer strike, the finger spear, the monkey-brain, the slapping open-hand kick-block, or at least stop throwing their hands down when they kick? Why don't they see that none of these techniques work, and that they should stop practicing them? "
While no one can argue about the throwing the hands down thing and the blocking kicks with your hands ( they are NOT suppose to be blocks, but that is another thread), anyone that has ever been drilled by a "chop, hammer or spear finger" by someone that KNOWS what they are doing will tell you why they haven't been dropped.
Why doe she keep coming back to TMA?
Because deep down he knows that cross training in REAL TMA is better than anything else he can find right now.
Interesting choice with Kuk sul won...
hammer fists are used all the time in modern MMA, slaps (chops) as well
but spear hands?
http://www.ir.isas.jaxa.jp/~cpp/TKD/.../sajang-04.jpg
is anyone really going to effectively use the traditional spear hand in a real fght?
LOL !!
Not like that !!
but that is a technique commonly taught in both Korean and Japanese traditions... ie BUNK!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin
and there is a lot of bunk is so called TMA
If they are a master of greco-slavic-dim-mak then that will hit a meridian resulting in instant death.Quote:
Originally Posted by lkfmdc
No argument there !Quote:
Originally Posted by lkfmdc
**** that move brings back memories ! :D
Let me use a quote from another thread because it is relevant
My teacher taught A LOT of stuff he never used nor would ever use in a fight. That's why I always found him a bit of a paradox, clearly a good fighter but also still bound by the chains of tradition, "well, this is part of the system, it's in the form, so we do it"..... the same CTS who in other regards refused to teach other stuff he didn't like, even stuff that was effectiveQuote:
To think that our martial arts ancestors (of which your own teacher is one) would
utilize techniques that didn't really work is ludicrous...
IE there is no applying logic to the minds of old TMA teachers!
"I am sure that somewhere there is one that could use it, just not anyone I know !"Quote:
Originally Posted by lkfmdc
I have seen and felt a spear hand, one from an Uechi ryu guy and the other from a Hung Ga guy, both hurt more than I like to put into words.
Could they use it on the street?
Yes.
Would I do to my hands what they did to theirs?
Nope.
No. the hand will naturally collapse unless you condition it to take hits in spear hand, and most people just don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by lkfmdc
That doesn't meen it's worthless to know, just not practical to use.
Just posted: Silly Self-Defense by Antonio Graceffo
One reason TCMA retain many techniques that your teacher may not speficially use is that what he thinks works and what works for him, and what you are likely to find effective, may not be the same thing.
In class I've been shown all sorts of techniques that Sifu himself wouldn't use, but that I really like, or the next guy. For instance, I'm not a huge fan of leg catching and the sweep from there or leg toss, but I'll show people it in class, and one of the guys is really good at it.
The same with the forms, you keep the system together and many people can benefit instead of having to conform to only a few techniques that might not suit you.
People will call stuff they don't understand all sorts of names.
that article is...well, an article.
I was watching mma last night from the cree river casino in edmonton an dthere was tons of hammerfists being dropped in every match also, kicks were slapped or ducked, there wasn't a lot of good slipping or bump and go action happening, but thereyou have it.
antonio relies too much on boxing imo. I am beginning to put him in the "narrow" category despite that he exposes himself to a lot, he seems to just want to show how much more effective his boxing is. cest la vie.
We could equate it to: People who want to share their views on religion with you would prefer that you do not share yours. :p
Doesn't he have a documentary coming out on Khmer boxing as well?
I think i like the gist of what he has to say: KISS: get good at something and be able to adapt it to the situation instead of 5,000 different options for only slightly different scenarios.
A friend of mine was making the analogy that forms are like an encyclopedia but knowing how to fight with your kung fu was like being a subject matter expert. If you wanted to be a marine biologist, or a fiction writer; using the encyclopedia is not the best way to get there, even if it's got all the information you'd ever need (not likely).
There's a lot of external teaching that should go along with forms.
In a lot of the other styles that Antonio does, there's a cohesive teaching methodology to get across the skills and good sparring as a lab test to refine.
Some kung fu programs have this some don't.
I really don't like the idea of dreaming up applications for arbitrary moves in a form; just given a certain shape, and expecting to be able to pull it off when things go live.
Lots and lots of drilling required at realistic speeds.
If one takes from a form the best for that one, even undefeatable don't different people shine at different techniques? Keeping the forms provides the armory. And as was mentioned, select the weapons of choice.
I No_Know
Yah but without honing, tools can be useless.
Without the drilling (honest to god, real speed & power drilling), then those techniques will still be useless.
Just because you see a move in a form that you've got natural ability to perform doesn't mean it's the move that's going to save your hiney in a fight.
It's the supplemental training around it (the technique in the form) that makes the technique usable.
Pork Chop - I agree 100%.
If you aren't learning the applications in the forms, drilling them against partners, then applying them against heavy bag/wooden dummy, pads, and sparring, you probably aren't training very hard or properly.
The funny thing is that there are very, very skilled kung fu people out there with no desire to compete. Somehow this makes what they do less good?
Every technique in a form has either a health or combative application. You can tell people haven't learned this difference when they take movements from sets that aren't meant for fighting and try to make them for fighting. Most Kung Fu application isn't really that complicated...you just have to learn it, drill it, and apply it in sparring training.
I think it is when people take out the direct combative applications and instead try to look like something from a movie that they start to betray what they've been taught!
Hello-Heaven-high, what might be some techniques that are used for health but not useable for fighting. As long as speed, power, angle, breathing may be adjusted to fit the situation, please show me/ tell me of techniques that cannot be used for fighting, I might No_Know.
I No_Know
Here's something Antonio just sent me, sort of his personal version of Human Weapon ala YouTube.
The only problem i saw in his article was the idea that a mma fight has never been finished by standing joint manipulation. Its my understanding the rules stop ppl using any form of joint lock on small joints and i have seen fights in mma finished with standing arm breaks. To me mma just means cross training so i think this is the new wave of cross training i think as time goes on we will c more mma winners under the "tma" banner just give it time and I say this because its not the system its the training in using it. Less ***** more punch
I like how his demo of a takedown is just like the ones where we see TCMA guys defending against in videos...
But how is that possible? He's a mma guy and he just bent over at the waist and rushed forward? What's going on?:eek:
did you miss the part where he said he's mainly a striker, a boxer and a kickboxer?Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterPalm
I wouldn't go to crocop to learn how to shoot, eventhough he's pretty good at defending them.
Antonio seems to do all the martial arts they cover in Human Weapon. Boxing background, trained at shaolin, 8 months in thailand with muay thai, and like I said, he's got a movie about khmer bokator boxing too.
Haven't seen any of his stuff outside of what's on youtube. Also haven't heard of him fighting mma. So i don't know how versed he is in mma.
Yeah, I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pork Chop
Just thought I'd jump the gun for the usual suspects.
When they see a clip of a kung fu guy doing his takedown defense against another kung fu guy, sometimes with a similar takedown to that one, they jump all over it and dismiss it.;)
a cr@ppy takedown is a cr@ppy takedown, regardless of whether you call yourself kung fu, muay thai, or mma. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by WinterPalm
Check out Antonio's latest submission, The Old Wolf and the Young Wolf
Both articles make you think...
The only thing I can say is the old argument of invested time. You do something 'cuz you think the reward will be there- you work in ernest- years go by--- suddenly you realize that it's too late to change, you know you should, but it just doesn't fit the plan anymore (and you don't really care). Next thing you know- you're teaching somebody else who trains in ernest.
Read Combat and Shan Kung Fu: Training with the Shan State Army by Antonio Graceffo. This is a shotgun article with one Antonio has in our 2008 May/June issue, hitting the stands now. Read Lai Tai: The Kung Fu of the Shan People, another piece about Burmese kung fu in Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine.
Nice article, thanks Gene.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneChing
I guess that fighting for independence is one way to do it ;)
Burma Martial Arts video Lai Tai
From Antonio Graceffo, The Monk from Brooklyn
I hope people enjoy reading about the Shan State Army and the Shan martial art of Lai Tai. Make sure to see the accompanying Lai Tai story in the print version of Kung Fu Magazine.
I have been reporting on the conflict in Burma and the ethnic people driven over the border into Thailand for the last six years. Finally, last year, I went into Burma for the first time and connected with the Shan State Army. My friends, the Shan soldiers and refugees, tell me horrifying stories about their villages being burned and their families murdered. I began spending nearly all my time in the war zone, looking for any way possible to help. I wrote stories for magazines, taught martial arts, and made a series of about 25 videos on you tube about the Shan and about their Lai Tai. I have done all of this work for free, first financing the work out of my own pocket, and later through small donations from people around the world who were concerned about the Shan people and the situation inside of Burma.
Martial arts are extremely important cultural elements which often get lost after a nation has endured a genocide. Readers may know that in my years of reporting from the remote parts of Asia I “discovered” the Cambodian martial art of Bokator and the Shan martial art of Lai Tai. Parallel to promoting the culture or publicizing the genocide, I was always wishing there were some direct way I could help the people.
On my last visit into the war zone we had a motorcycle accident while going through a military checkpoint. An American artist who was working on a series of Shan sculptures was injured. A tribal man was nearly killed. One of my Shan State Army soldier friends was captured.
That incident frightened me. It was a wake up call. For years I had been considering attending paramedic training. After I recovered from a head injury, a number of kind people around the world sent me small sums of money so I could fly to Manila and attend paramedic school. It was the cheapest option.
I have been here for eight weeks and will take my license exam and start volunteering on an ambulance here, before finishing my schooling. When my paramedic training is over, I will be returning to Shanland and the Burma border to help with backpack medic teams. I am still continuing with my Shanland, Burma writing and film making, releasing one piece per week.
I need some help. I am reaching out to the martial arts community who has always been so kind to me in the past.
I need to get my paramedic equipment this week and need some financial help for my training and for film editing. If you can help, thank you. If you can’t, I completely understand. Just enjoy the videos and spread the word about Shanland and the ethnic people of Burma.
If you wish to contribute to paramedic training and “In Shanland” film project, you can donate through paypal, through the Burma page of my website.
http://speakingadventure.com/burma.htm
If you would like to see the Lai Tai videos on youtube, click here.
http://youtube.com/results?search_qu...i&search_type=
click for vid.
Quote:
Martial Arts Odyssey: Shan Kung Fu
May 9, 2009
by Antonio Graceffo
A lot of fight fans don’t get very involved with international politics. Hopefully featuring the Kung Fu of the Shan people will help call attention to the genocide in Burma. Inside the war zone of Burma, under protection of the Shan State rebel army, host Antonio Graceffo is one of the first foreigners ever to experience Lai Tai or Shan Kung Fu. The Shan are one of Burma’s many ethnic minorities being subjected to genocide at the hands of heir own government. Meet young Master Kawn Wan, whose parents were murdered by the SPDC Burmese government army. Now, he lives on the Shan State Army base, teaching Lai Tai Kung Fu to the war orphans in the hopes of preserving the Shan culture. One of the Shan army lieutenants ominously told Antonio, “If the world doesn’t come to help us soon, your video will be the last record of our people.”
Antonio Graceffo is the former assistant head of Private Wealth Management for one of the largest private banks in the United States. He is now an adventure and martial arts author, and has lived in Asia for many years, publishing four books and several hundred articles in magazines and websites around the world. He has worked as a consultant and writer for shows on the History and Discovery channels and appears on camera in “Digging for the Truth” and “Human Weapon”. Antonio is host of the web TV show, “Martial Arts Odyssey.” He was embedded with the Shan State rebel army in Burma, documenting human rights abuses, and doing a film and print project to raise awareness of the Shan people. To see all of his videos about martial arts, Burma and other countries, click here. Check out his books here. Visit his website at www.speakingadventure.com. Contact him at antonio@speakingadventure.com.