How do u feel a Taekwondo stylist would fare against a Wing Chun practitioner, and what strategy should they take.
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How do u feel a Taekwondo stylist would fare against a Wing Chun practitioner, and what strategy should they take.
When I took WC we had a TKD guy there. He was a bear to fight for the pure WC guys, in the same way that a WC guy would be a bear for a pure TKD guy.
It can have a lot to do with if you are familiar with the opponents fighting style. The more familiar it is, the more predictable it is and the more opportunnities you have to identify weaknesses.
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
Yah. The entire fight depends on one thing, but I think the upper hand will go to the WC practicioner most of the time. Since many of you are familiar with the striker/grappler act, I will draw a parallel between the this and the question.
A striker and a grappler go at it. THe striker gets in 10 shots avoiding takedown attempts, but the grappler is still standing. On the 11th shot, even though the grappler has taken a beating, he takes the striker to the ground and the fight is over in one move.
Same way with the WC/TKD fight. If the TKD person can keep his distance and throw long range kicks and then get out of range, he can hold his advantage of distance fighting; but the second the Wing Chun guy manages to close in, the TKD guy is in his worst possible area -- The TKD practicioner is in too close to launch and kicks and the Wing Chun man is in his element - Fast strong close punches to the vital areas. I would expect the fight to be over as soon as the Wing Chun man got in close range. I don't think a TKD practicioner could ever defend against close range fighting, especially with a Wing Chun person. So if the TKD practicioner had alot of space and landed one or two solid kicks, he could TKO the WC'er. But otherwise, its just a matter of time.
-Scott
"You have to consider the possibility that god does not like you; he never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. It is not until we have lost everything that we can do anything."
One problem with rushing a good TKD fellow is that one of their favorite moves is a back kick into a rushing opponent.
Yah, I agree that of course Tae Kwon Do people have techniques aimed at covering their weak spots (close range fighting.) But then on the other hand, Wing Chun people have many techniques on closing the gap. Of course the more experienced fighter will win either way, I'm talking assuming they are of equal skill levels
You don't "Rush" the gap, btw ;) That's a BJJ thing. In Wing Chun you only move in with combination with a technique. IE; I block your kick and step in. Not to say that a back kick wouldn't drop me in one shot if it landed.
-Scott
"You have to consider the possibility that god does not like you; he never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. It is not until we have lost everything that we can do anything."
I don't know Scott, when I took WC guys were always rushing the gap. I attribute this more to their failings than failings in WC strategies. But that TKD guy had a ball. :)
well lets look at both arts, tkd's main technique's are kicking, but in wing chun you are tought to close the gap closing off tkd's kick and leaving him only to use low kicks and punches which will be deflected by a good wc fighter then the wc fighter will just strike the tkd guy with blinding speed and power knocking the tkd guy out for the count,
I never new how effective the ‘back kick’ was until a Kickboxer joined our TKD school. Of course he started as a white belt, but he whipped up the mat with many of the higher ranking students.
I have been caught by several back kicks in TKD tournaments – some I can still feel deep inside my body. Since then, I have always practiced this technique. I learned, never rush a TKD guy/gal. Ouch!
Godzilla
If only things always worked the way we wanted them to Black Tiger.
People seem to be unaware that Taekwondo fighters know how to use their feet for things other than kicking -- like moving (into position comfortable for them to strike, or out of the way of an attack, or...the possibilities of the feet in Taekwondo are endless).
Robin
Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.
Hi Robin, how've you been?
I'm fine. I'm trying to stay away from threads like this where people chime in saying "Oh, a TKD person would..." When none of them really know what a TKD would actually do. But, this one seemed to be a rational discussion and I just wanted to toss in my experience.
Robin
Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.
yes tkd can use there foot feet for moves and stuff i should know i mean i study it when i was a kick and got my black belt second degree but then i found out that tkd doesnt work on the street that thug in the bronx will drop you ounce they see your kick and then about thirty other guys start stomping the crap out of you. say what you may but even do tkd is a good art and good in tournaments but when it comes to the street ummm.........lets just say thats thirty guys stomping on a 9 year 10 year olds head does'nt feel good at all
I hold a second degree black belt in taekwondo.
When I first did some hard contact sparring with a wing chun guy he destroyed me.. every time. ( I did sneak one good kick on him though.. but that was more out of suprise than anything else)
Now, after only a little less than two years in wing chun I do the same to my old tkd friends...consistantly.
The way i view it there is only standup range in fighting... the range where a hit lands. At that point I move in, block and strike - and being that I can almost always move forward faster than my opponenet can move backward.. I follow if he retreats.
Generally I find it best if I avoid a few kicks first.. get their rythm down.. then move in on the kick afterwards.
Then again perhaps this is all b/c I'm very used to fighting tkd guys.
It's funny how black tiger has a 2nd degree BB in TKD but talks of it in the third person.
Good catch. That is funny. It's also funny that as soon as I mention people talking about TKD who actually don't know TKD, 2 people post they're 2nd degrees.
Black Tiger and Kalos, what is the significance of the 2nd degree in the black belt?
Robin
Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.
yo i don't know what the hell is your problems rogue and robin i have no beef with you so get the
hell out of my "face"
I merely stated that to show that I have some experience in tkd. Wether or not it matters to you is not my concern. The signifigance is that I spent some time doing it and could be considered having some knowledge in the sport/art before I critique it.
I will also say that the last time I practiced tkd was about 6 years ago.. so I'm sure I'm not nearly as adept with it as I once was. (but when I sparred a wing chun guy for the first time I was still in training)
TKD was a lot of fun.. I enjoyed my time in it, I however feel that for real self defense it isn't the best art to go with. (Although it certainly helped me in high school against your standard bully) - I also feel wing chun exploits alot of the weaknesses of TKD.
just my $.02 though
Black Tiger,
I didn't think I was getting in your face. My appoligies if you interpreted my post as hostile. That was not my intent. I merely asked a simple question. If you actually were a second dan black belt in Taekwondo, you would have no trouble answering.
Kalos,
I appreciate that you were giving us what experience you had in TKD, but the experience we have as children with anything is vastly different than the experience we have with the same thing as an adult. That's part of the point I was making.
I also found it just way too coincidental that two people would claim to have second dans just after I voiced my beef with folks who state that a TKD person would do such when the person making the post really doesn't have the experience enough to know what a TKD person would do. If they did, then they would know that kicking is only half, Kwon, the other half, Tae, is hands. The full system is FootHandWay, or the way of the hand and foot--equally.
Robin
Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.
I see your point regarding the coincidence.. kinda funny actually but I assure you I'm not talking out of my butt here..
well.. the last time I trained in tkd I was 19.. not exactly a child.. had been training in it since I was about 12..
Perhaps your system is better than the one I studied..
really from what I learned all the hands did was block when it came down to it.. sure we knew how to straight punch, reverse punch, backfist, ridge hand, knife hand etc..
but it rarely ever showed in sparring..
I also trained in okinawan karate in high school (ueichi ryu) and found when I used the close range techniques of that against my taekwondo peers that it was very effective.
All that being said - I still spar regularly with the friends I made in TKD.. they are now much better than I was when I left and all adults in their mid to late 20's and I find WC to be so very effective against them its actually kinda sad. They just don't train for close range fighting..
Anyway.. I really don't want to style bash here.. just posting my experiences.. just so you know my tkd experience was probably with the worst assocation out there the ATA - probably the king of "mcdojo's"
go out and spar with people of other styles - full contact with gloves and headgear.. perhaps you will have better luck than I did making TKD work for you.
I see what you're saying, Kalos. Thanks for the rational reply.
Good TKD schools are hard to find. I study WTF, but even that, if you get a school that does only the sport sparring, you're totally missing the self-defense part of TKD, which is where it would come in effective against Wing Chun. The self-defense uses a lot of low kicks, close-in fighting techniques and strategies as well as strategies to create or take away distance. TKD in fuool is quite a full martial art.
I'm 28, so to me, sorry, 19 is a kid--not a "child", but, to me, barely an adult. I know I see TKD differently now than when I did when I was 21 or even 25. Likewise, I saw plays and books differently when I was in college and in graduate school than when I read the same play in high school. I also see myself and the world differently now than I did a few years ago, and especially different from when I was 19. I guess it's all a part of aging. So, to me, past experience with TKD that stopped some time ago is a bit lacking in depth, because something else, like Wing Chun for you, has taken over. You haven't really had to think about TKD anymore, just your Wing Chun.
I'm glad you found a system and a school that's working so well for you. I wish that for everyone. Taekwondo is not for everyone, but for those who it's for, it's truly an effective system against anything. What works is what you practice.
Robin
Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.
i apologies for acting so rash it's just that alot of people in hear like to start beef i know that tkd utilizes hands but the school i went to relied more on foot techniques but thats beside the point the point is that tkd is not a good enouth art to contend with cma's. even do when i was a tkd trainer i beat a few lousy kung fu fighters but think about like this wing chun is almost all hand about 70% hands 30%legs and it's all about destroing the oppanent do you actually think weather your a tkd fighter or not that you will beat a wc fighter lets get real robin your a cool guy and i like how you stick up for your art and i would do the same thing but while tkd is good for sport fighting it isnt good for the streets come on hve you ever wipped some guys out on the street
Black Tiger, At least you're giving props to Robin for being a cool guy. That he is.
Sorry though Tiger, good TKD is as good as CMA. Same with Shotokan and other styles of karate. CMA suffers from the same thing that other arts suffer from, lack of good instructors. Instructors who know systems in their fullness.
WC is a very good art, but it has potential flaws if not done well. The same as TKD.
Black Tiger,
No problem. I've been on this board for two years (had to resign up when their first server went down, so the march sign up date is wrong) and I've seen a lot of folks talk about TKD, but they only studied the style as a child and only did the sport.
TKD is about destroying your opponent, even in the ring. World Taekwondo Federation allows knock outs. In order to knock out your opponent with your feet, you have to beat an opponent who, technically, knows what you're doing and knows how to defend against it. But this is just the sport. The self-defense, which should be studied alongside, but rarely is, is also about either rendering your opponent unable to continue or simply getting yourself away from the situation. Whatever you choose to do, it's about being in control of the situation and yourself. That's what you learn (or can learn if you learn real TKD) in Taekwondo as well as in any CMA or any other martial art.
Taekwondo fairs evenly against Wing Chun.
Robin
Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.
I allways find it odd when everyone says TKD is only good for sport. I grew up around a TKD school(my dad took lessons for quite a while) and never actualy saw the sport style fighting until about 2-3 years ago. In fact his teacher was very much against tournements. They would fight full contact, no pads, no rules all the time. Pretty hardcore training.
I think it depends who can dictate the fight. If the TKD practitioner can keep his distance then he should be able to defeat the WC guy. If the WC guy can break thru and launch his techniques, he may win.
To compare TKD to Aikido is interesting (I know we are supposed to compare TKD to WC, but…). In TKD we keep our distance. In Aikido we invite the opponent in. We want to get close in Aikido (like WC). When I trained in TKD, the attacker stayed away when throwing a punch. I would block/deflect/avoid and launch a counter attack (usually a kick). Now in Aikido, the attacker runs at me and continues his forward motion. He needs to be close in order to launch a counter attack. If I do not react he will run into me.
Which is better? To me the answer is, both. If I can keep my distance, I can win with TKD techniques. If my opponent gets too close, I hope to be able to use my Aikido.
Which attack is more realistic, the stiff punch thrown from a distance or the charging bull with his arms wide open? To me the answer again is, both.
Oh, by the way I really don’t have a BB in WC, but I thought I would join the fun.
Truly,
Godzilla
how do you keep your distance? It doesn't seem to make sense to me in both my experience and theory.
TKD guy kicks, WC guy (I) either jam his leg with my own kick and step in, or I block it and step.. maybe I'll just rush in - (not giving the leg time to fully extend therby negating its power) and attack. Ok.. so as soon as he puts his leg down from the kick he's going to move back correct? Yet all this while I can step foward continuing my attack and I've yet to see someone move back faster than he can move forward. So perhaps he kicks me at close range (I used to be able to do a crescent kick to the head at close range so..) well he's standing on one leg.. if I throw any strike he's going to fall down..
Ok so he throws punches.. well at that point I think most of us can agree he's playing my game and I'm going to have superior reactions to this..
same with close range low kicks..
I really think it comes down to he better get one good hard kick in very quickly.. enough to end the fight there.
keep in mind my theory's above are based apon the idea that both stylists have similiar training times.. and are only my opinions based apon my experience doing full contact sparing with taekwondo students and friends.
Kalos,
Your theory is also based on the wrong assumption that TKD folks only kick. We also have close in fighting strategies that use low kicks or no kicks at all, but use hands or elbows, trapping or throwing, or simply blocking and punching.
As far as distance for kicking, any TKDist worth anything in TKD knows how to create enough distance or diminish too much distance if he/she wants to kick. The TKDist also knows how to side step and punch or elbow, or grab and throw, or even kick while in close. TKDists actually know how to defend themselves.
Robin
Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.
I'm aware that a TKDis can punch and move. We all can.. any martial art has punching, elbows and sidestepping in it..
however the topic is a comparison between WC and TKD and I'm talking about the speciality of each style. Close range in-fighting is the specialty of WC. Kicking is the specialty of TKD, particularly long range kicks.
My theory was based on the assumption that each stylist would use his/her specialty, as to do otherwise would most likely end in defeat. I don't know how you train Robin, but I've never met a TKDist who trained for close range fighting anywhere close to the amount of time a WCist would.
Also my question was an honest one.
"As far as distance for kicking, any TKDist worth anything in TKD knows how to create enough distance or diminish too much distance if he/she wants to kick. "
how?
my above argument was based on the idea that the TKDist was going to try for distance.. if your saying my argument would not work explain how.
Your reply seems to merely say.. "nope, we can fight with the best of them" without saying how..
I'm honestly intrested in the discussion, not just saying "my style kicks a$$" ;)
respectfully,
kalos
In any school, the distance you spar or practice at is the distance you will be most comfortable with when actually fighting. In TKD, if your opponent moves forward, you may step back or sidestep. Always keeping proper distance is part of the art. I’m fairly certain part of WC’s strategy is proper distancing.
Most of the kicks and punches in TKD are very strong and focused. If they land, your opponent will be hurt. It is my opinion, during one of these committed TKD strikes, the TKDer is vulnerable ONLY IF your opponent can spot these openings. For example: during a roundhouse kick, your opponent drops and sweeps your supporting leg.
Perhaps one of WC’s weaknesses is entering against a TKD guy/gal. If they get caught, they are out. I have witnessed (and participated in) several knock outs (I have been knocked out – roundhouse to the kidney area – lights out). I have also walked into a spinning back kick – again lights out. Both times while entering to throw a punch.
To me, it’s all about who can control the fight. Sometimes all that’s needed is the look in your eyes.
If I had to pick a winner, I would call it a draw.
Truly,
Godzilla
Don’t think. Do.
You’ll never plough a field by turning it over in your head.
Kalos, Of course one arts going to look bad if you keep it to only one small group of techniques.
I have taken a bit of WC and think it's a good art, but it does have flaws. Most WC guys that I've met are horrible kickers, btw so am I, and really should practice more against Muay Thai and TKD people.
I think a WC person would have problems using a stop kick against a TKD or karate kick due to the high tight chambering that is used. I have tried jamming back/side kicks and ended up with some cracked ribs, a lot of power gets generated in a short space by someone who's a good kicker. When a TKD person turns their back that's when you have to watch out, since they may be creating space for a kick.
So far the best techniques against a good TKD kicker that I've found are
1) get out of the way, re-direct the kick a bit and then counter (straight TKD technique),
2) move in fast, catch and trap it, it's risky and it'll hurt but maybe you'll get the takedown,
3) use the same defenses that Muay Thai fighters use.
But if a WC guy can get up close and personal then he'd be in good position to use his tools to take the TKD person.
I have a white belt in Aikido and am very proud of it!
Truly,
Godzilla
Kalos,
Sparring in TKD, you create or diminish distance by staying on the balls of your feet, not flat foot. If your opponent moves in, you slide back, side step to create distance, you can spin kick, axe kick over the blind shoulder for close in kicking, of course an elbow, punch, chop, spearhand, etc., will also do very well in this close up situation (depending on what's thrown at you). If your opponent moves back, slide in or "skip" in with a kick.
The first thing that's taught in TKD sparring is to recognize space (empty and full) and how to deal with it. Wing Chun doesn't examine space like this? I assumed fighting arts all looked at space.
Robin
Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.
Whassup ? First off I would just like to ask one question . What is the relevance of this query ? Since when did any sport style ( with the exception of BJJ and Western Boxing ) have the substance ( mental and physical ) of a true combat discipline . If some of you witnessed traditional practitioners being handled by TKD enthusiast , then you can probabaly fault your Sifu's teaching ability , or the students lack of skill or dedication . TKD is just basically diluted Shotokan , with integrated high kicks . Hell , one versed in true combat science should be able to handle any conceivable street situation , let alone a limited "sparring" session . Of course innate ability is a contributing factor , but a M.A. should have little problem dealing with a similarly skilled sports "artist" . I see that many contributors to this forum love to use loose analogies , so allow me to use one of my own . Of the thousands of TKD practitioners out there ( past and present ) ; how many of them made a significant change in the totality of mankinds hand-to-hand combat philosophy that would be comparable to Bruce Lee's . All this "MMA" bull and the modern approach to martial training can be attributed to Sifu Lee , because although not his original idea , he nonetheless popularized "cross-training" . Mr. Lee was a Wing Chun stylist originally , was he not . I can hear you TKD students out there yelling , "Hey what about Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho ?" , well many would say that their contributions have been more Capitilistic than Stylistic . So remember this : Alchemy has evolved like the system which espouses it to this day , but the tenet remains the same - to take something of little or no value and transmute it into something of apparent value . Just because you've been brainwashed to believe something is true doesn't make it so . Throughout HIStory man has made many incorrect assumptions about many things . All I know is that a M.A. should be able to handle a sport fighting enthusiast 95% of the time provided they are of similar size , speed , strength , etc.. Naw'mean ??!!
Well to put it mildly, many sport arts spend more time working on things like distancing, hitting and being hit than many non-sport arts. Knowing a technique that's effective is different from being able to use it live.
Also to say that TKD(which version) is watered down Shotokan(which is watered down Okinawan karate, which may be watered down southern White Crane, neh?) and then expound about Bruce Lee whose Jun Fan is watered down Wing Chun is quite funny. If not for Lees movie star status he'd had been just another teacher.
omegapoint said: Throughout HIStory man has made many incorrect assumptions about many things.
Since you made it a point that it's HIStory and that MAN is incorrect, then you must be incorrect. Seeing that I'm a woman, then I must be correct, since it's not HERstory, but HIStory that MAN got wrong.
Taekwondo is not a sport, it is a martial art for self-defense. Bruce Lee died before he could become anything worth mentioning.
Robin
Rogue:
You are correct in assuming that TKD is diluted sport karate , but any true practitioner knows that Okinawan Karate is a combo of Gyaku-te and Tuite (Ryukyuan striking and grappling arts) and Fukien Crane Chuan Fa . The Okinawan styles of Kojo Ryu and Matsumura Orthodox Shorin Ryu are 2 prime examples of this amalgamation . Maybe the way I should have worded it was both TKD and Shotokan are derivatives of the parent style(s) (Shaolin Chuan Fa and Shuri Te originally known as Suidi). Well in all actuality that places them further away from the intent of the progenitors. Does that make more sense ?
Robin:
Good try at wordplay but the reason I emphasized the HIS in history was to point to the fact that individual interpretation (of the past) has lead us down the road of failure and disappointment many times . I was'nt being gender biased . It's your world baby, go ahead and manifest your destiny. That doesn't make it true , especially for someone other than Robin. The M.A.s I've studied for over 20 yrs. have little use for commercialism and notariety, and tend to focus on combat science. These specific fighting philosophies have changed little over hundreds of years and don't need the yellow pages or the ho-lympics to propagate them . Ya' feel me?
"Well in all actuality that places them further away from the intent of the progenitors."
So any art derived from another is inferior because it's further from the intent of the one before it? So that means JKD sucks? Or Goju, Defendo, Mantis, Pek Kwar, Judo, or even Wing Chun since all derive from something else? I think not. The intent is not dictated by the one before it but by the way it is practiced currently.
Also what would make boxing an exception to your rule about sport styles? Boxing has even more limited tools and targets than does say the Sabaki Challenge, Muay Thai, San Soo or NHB events.
What Combat science arts have you studied over the last 20 years and why did change styles.
Also how often to you spar?
Dear Rogue:
I was a military brat who moved around every 3-4 years until my dad was stationed in the Philippines. I started taking Judo when I was 7 yrs. old until the base we were at closed down and we had to PCS (premanent change of station). I was enrolled in Judo for 3.5 yrs.. When I was 9-10 my pops relocated to San Antonio, Tx.. I went to a local eastside school and even in elementary kids gave me grief. I tried my best to stay out of trouble, but some antiwhite (racists are racists) fools always "perturbed" me. My best friend AL was taking boxing at the time and I decided to join the "Y". I also continued with my Judo training at the YMCA, but being less-versed in striking I took a fancy to the "sweet science". My skills as a basic fighter continued to increase and by the time I was 14, the altercations I participated in at school decreased to zero. Just as I was gaining popularity (and consequently having not to fight) my dad was reassigned to the Philippines.
For a complete story on that see my reply a few months ago on KFO. Needless to say, the environment there was electric; lots of static (especially off-base). When Hip Hop became a phenomenon in the early 80's my younger brother and I took to it like it was the best thing since Bruce Lee (heh, heh, heh, I had to throw that in) and became quite adept at both "popping" and "breaking". As a result we entered many competitions on and off base and more often than not, emerged victorious. This led to much animosity towards us (especiallly by a few of the locals who definitely needed the money more than us). We even had local low-lifes show up on-base waiting to "kill us" after school. For a year we had to be especially careful about going off-base. Many of our friends who liked to "club" and drink took surrogate beatings and death threats as a result of our not being there.This led to me (and my brother) taking our first Shorin Ryu class. The style we took is called Kobayashi or Shorinkan. Choshin Chibana was the founder, and his direct student Shuguro Nakazato taught our Sensei. Kobayashi is considered to be "sport" or "school boy" karate (as is most), but many of the orthodox fighting techniques were/are still taught. Many of the early pioneers (Lewis, Wallace, etc.) of American kickboxing were Shorin Ryu (Matsubayashi, Shobayashi, and Kobayashi). We also (like TKD) utilized high kicks, but were always taught what was for the Dojo, and what was for the street. I continued taking Shorin Ryu Shorinkan for 6 more years, until we moved back to the states. In addition to learning Shaolin my Sensei was also a Sifu in Filipino/Chinese Kuntao. I found this style to be similar in principle to Shorin, but with more emphasis on the circular, rather than a combo of linear and circular techs (although it did contain some). Whilst there I sparred with Goju Ryu, Kajukenbo, Shotokan, Hung Gar Kung Fu, and most especially TKD practitioners (we had an integrated school that taught different styles at different times, and sometimes at the same time-AAMA). Each art had their good points. The TKD stylist were very fast and flexible with their legs, but their hand techniques were less than average when compared to the other stylist. There was this African-American Security Policeman (TKD B.B.) who was Chuck Norris awesome, but he too had studied various styles. Listen, I'll be the first one to tell you that the style doesn't make the stylist, and that the reverse is true, but some styles are just more practical than others, and are more conducive to realistic situations. TKD is cool, but it isn't the only sport that teaches sound fighting principles. Where I eventually settled down after college there are no traditional dojos (and I live in the 8th largest Metro-area) so I have to drive over 2 Hrs. to train in Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seitu Karate JUTSU. From this style I've learned there is no "DO" other than the "DO" of "BUJUTSU". I attained my Nidan in Kobayashi, and right now I'm tightening up my theory and technique by studying Orthodox Shorin. I've been through and seen a lot of b.s. in my life and I don't understand what people in the States think Kara (China/Tang) and Te (Ryukyuan Ti or hand techniques) mean. Sparring is good for kids to learn distance, footwork, balance, coordination but when it comes to sparring it's hard to practice like you'll play (in the street). That's where 2 man drills have as much, if not more, validity as an effective fighting tool. I can still "roll" and spar, but i think I have that game down. Give credit where credit is due and quit with all the "smoke and mirrors". Wing Chun is a legitimate JUTSU (Science), TKD and most other striking sports are (like boxing and judo) just that:sports. I'm pretty sure most athletes can take care of themselves, but they don't claim to be WAR (Martial) Artists.