Profound respect for Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun, re: Yuen Kay San

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Originally Posted by Pacman

i could be wrong but it was said that cheung bo's WCK was entirely san sik based. again, people can add to their WCK and it is likely that if you are to add forms to your WCK you would add the standard 3 forms we see today and not the old 12+

you also mentioned about YKS at ng chung so's night club, learning form YM

YKS was rich, he had nothing to do but relax his whole life. just because he watched people practice WC does not mean he was learning from them. he also watched Cheung Bo teach Sum Nung Cheung Bo's restaurant, he was not learning from Cheung Bo

If Mike Tyson watched a kid train at a boys boxing gym, it doesnt mean hes learning from the kid!

in any case im done with this thread. ive shared what i know and admitted certain things are unprovable on both sides of the argument. its up to you if you want to take what is known and draw your own analysis from there.

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Great research shown by the seniors here. See, how can I be some great researcher when others have so much more years in real training?

You are again smoking something else
Who said this????
you also mentioned about YKS at ng chung so's night club, learning form YM
What I did say was what Kwok Fu said in his video interview and also what was reported as a story by Ip Man to his disciples.

So far I have yet to see anything in writing or video to show your position. And I have presented alot of that to show what you are saying is wrong

But my point was not to run down any lineage, but to tell you, Chinese Kung Fu is about respecting the elders and the traditions. And that act of offering tea was exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Pacman

-the senior student compared to YM
-YKS was the actual one who was part of the richest family in Fatsan.
-YKS was the one who gave instruction to YM for a while when the Yip family was burned down due to the Yip family's drug smuggling connections, again suggesting superiority in WC skill and knowledge
-YKS never worked a day in his life due to his wealth, had the best and most expensive teachers money could buy, housed his teacher Fung Siu Ching in the traditional way, learning from him every day until Fung Siu Ching died.

Compare this to the facts about YM:

-we also know that YM only learned from Chan Wah Shun for a few months before Chan Wah Shun he died, and then had to learn from his Sihing. His involvement with Leung Bik and the "secret" wing chun is under question.

People can make their own conclusion as to what happened. we have established the facts, here is my analysis.

Did YM create the simpler version of WC in between having his house burnt down and fleeing to HK, only to have YKS, the senior student, take the new version.

Or did YKS, the senior student, who had all the time and money in the world, who did nothing but practice WC and fight in duels (records kept and verified by government run Chinese Historical Kung Fu Assocation), streamline the WC he learned and have it spread out to others.

thank you for your input and verification of the facts i presented. as we all know, Robert has spent a lot of time learning WC history

i have presented my analysis. everyone can make their own. i have met in Guangdong people without a dog in this race--a student of YM when he was in Fatsan, and the widow of a YKS student. Both have said everyone knows that YKS is the most famous and well known WCK practitioner of those days. YKS skill and conditioning were beyond reproach. he could jab his fingers into a japanese soldier's helmet and leave 5 finger dents.

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Senior in what? What does Yuen family say? Or his other friend Yiu's family?
They were from different lineages. Senior in age? Sure. Master Yuen was reportedly a few years younger than Master Leung Jan

See the problem with your statements is that when we have Yuen and Yiu family reports and videos, you say nothing but carry on your unjustified statements. When I show you text from china on ip man, you still go on with your unjustified statements

I cannot find anything about Ip Man smuggling connection. Never seen anything on that, or that the house was burnt down. Its not reported in china either
I did see sifu sergio stand at Ip Man residences where now there is no house in Mulberry Park. Is that your reference? So if it was burnt down, was that before he left for hongkong or was it destroyed in the war?
I cannot find anything or anyone that said Ip Man stayed with Master Yuen. I did see something reported of Master Ip Man staying with Master Kwok Fu.

So you have a report Ip Man had to work as in the movie Ip Man 1, in the coal mines? I can assure you, the amount of Silver Ip Man gave Chan Wah Shun was no walk in the park. It was said to be able to buy a wife in those days.

Ip Man was reported to have learnt longer than a few months from Chan Wah Shun. So you are wrong
In fact, Ip Man's and his other 2 kung fu brother exploits have been documented for years even before you knew what wingchun was. Its funny for the west to come round and tell china, oh you are wrong here, and there. Or create another story.

Chinese Historical Kung Fu Assocation??? Please tell me where it is. I am heading to china this year and to guangzhou, I will find this place ask them myself as well as other seniors in china, Yuen and Yiu family in particular

I have no beef against Master Yuen and Master Yiu(which you have nothing on despite them also being very famous) and I have the highest respect for their skills. I have a problem with silly stories that cannot be justified with anything and still continue to go on and on doing so.

Again, happy to learn something but you have to show it through video interview or text or something. Otherwise, its just stories you came up with to run Ip Man down.

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Originally Posted by Pacman

regarding Yiu Choy and Chan Wah Shun...

the book is call "Wing Chun Kuen" by Hon Quang Gow a student of Chan Wah Shun's great grandson, there is many in the series. You will see that they have more than 3 forms and 108 movements. Everyone today likes to coincide with YKS' 3 forms and reduce--it is much simpler.

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Man, so now you are saying Chan Wah Shun grand son also learn from Yuen Kay San? What are you saying???

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Originally Posted by chusauli

I remember seeing early Vietnamese WCK from Yuen Chai Wan's branch in the 1980's and it had one Siu Lien Tao (very similar to YKS), did not have Chum Kiu or Biu Jee, but had some additional hand sets and 5 animals Hei Gung sets. The 6.5 point staff was not similar at all to either the YKS or Yip Man version. They were known for their Gim set and had a set of Yee Ji Cern Dao.

Yip Man's 6.5 point pole set and the YKS 6.5 point pole set are very close. The 3 forms are very close. If you look at Leung Sheung's 3 WCK sets, it looks very much like YKS WCK, sans the Ngoi Huen Sao and the circular moves in CK and BJ in YKS.

YKS has 3 forms, a unique Jong set, 6.5 point pole and Yee Ji Cern Dao. The Yee Ji Dao does not come from Fung Siu Ching or Kok Bo Chuen - but may have been extracted from Cheung Bo's teachings.

Both Yip Man and YKS 6.5 point pole are dissimilar to Siu Lam Weng Chun's 6.5 point pole which I studied from Andreas Hoffman, whigh is descended from Fung Siu Ching. The latter form is more complex and richer in variation.

The Futshan WCK that Yip Man taught bears a strong resemblance to YKDS WCK, but not as soft and rounded.

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Thank you Senior Robert, since you spent years in both arts, your word means alot here

I have found the similar facts as you. So while the forms of YKS and Ip Man are similar in appearance and its public, for all to see on video, I happen to notice a vast difference in application and energy when they chi sao

In the Yuen Family forms, I see alot of circular fluid movements with various speeds in the forms e.g last part of Sil Lim Tao(perhaps to show white crane lineage). And a great deal of chin na like in Rene's book and Yuen Jo Tong's movements. The Bil Jee shown by Sum Nung student, Master Zhou in guangzhou, also shows different movements and speeds, energy compared to the energy in GM Ip Ching bil jee.

Here for comparison are the 2 families descendants doing bil jee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gq0i-13FJcy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctJ2KMc6VzI

From what I practice and study of the Ip Man family forms, they are not the same in energy.

If Sifu Wong Nim Yi is anyone to reference, the Yi Jee Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao is not the same as Ip Man Bart Cham Dao, and neither is the lok dim bun gwun taught by GM Ip Ching.

And yes, I can see Yuen Kay San signature in Sifu Mak Yiu Ming Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kil, Bil Jee. Although he does not claim anything back to master yuen, its clear that had a similar source.

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Originally Posted by Hendrik

My view is every one seems like to be a grand master and write all kind of books or article or making movies to promote his view.

However, what is WCK? up to now since YKS's generation how many could describe it clearly disregards of all the Books, seminals, web arguement.....etc.

See, if one doesnt know what it is, disregard of how many sets or how many books, there is no punch line but all kind of scattering and even confusing /contradictory information.

Up to now, most what have read here are just he says she says and HIS-STORY. what do these contribute to? more confusion.

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Hi Senior Hendrik, I think my main purpose, is to honour the great man Ip Man as he is honoured in China. And for me the exploits of Master Yuen and Master Yiu cannot be disregarded hence the tea ceremony was important. That is the chinese way.

However, there are some who are jealous and play politics.
Till now so no can show me the chinese article which say Ip Chun lied about Leung Bik. Its only available in English translation. And the same video clip reported on youtube is muted. Check out my actual version, with audio and the actual words are different from what is said in English Content.
Clearly this is politics and someone playing up a story.

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Originally Posted by bennyvt

Ive seen the grandson of chan wah shun. He's a joke. He just goes off the fact that he is from that family.
I ask again, where are all the great YKS guys that could beat us all.
As I said before sounds like a little baby crying that someone else is more famous then them. Suck it up dude.

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This is my point as well

If we fast forward to today, we see very different videos of 3 families, very different applications, very different energies.

And the Chan family are so different as well

I cannot see today, any point that they were all taught by the same person Master Yuen as said by Pacman.

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Originally Posted by Pacman

terrence i cant believe i am bothering to respond to you because for a lawyer you are incredibly unintelligent yet believe you know everything.

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No, I KNOW that I do not know everything. But I don't blindly accept everything that I am told. Moreover, I put everything I dohear through my bullsh1t detector.

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i will just respond to your mischaracterizations of my arguments

no my point is that i cannot produce a document detailing what yip man does and does not know.

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Which means what? It mean nothing. The fact you lack such a document means nothing about what Yip knew or didn't know or what his skill level was. The fact that there never was such a document means nothing. So to try and draw some conclusions from that is irrational.

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its like trying to produce a document of what terrence niehoff knows. why the hell would anyone write a document about terrence niehoff? therefore we can only work off of other clues, such as terrence niehoff says he knows all about all forms of WCK and fighting because robert chu ripped him off of thousands of dollars and read a book.

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Putting aside your personal barbs, from a historical perspective, it is a simple matter to look at what Yip taught.

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WCK even since the red boat had a lot more forms.

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No, it hasn't. You appear to be relying on some book written by one person with an agenda of promoting himself. The WCK which descends from Wong Wah Bo has always had ONLY the three empty hand forms. Some have added village forms and other southern fist forms to their curriculum.

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even YKS and his brother were taught this type of WCK. this is why even YKS's brother's lineage has a lot more 'material' even though they had the same teacher. YKS was the one who simplified to the three forms we know

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No, because when we look at other people who weren't taught by YKS, we also see the three forms (like Lai Yip Chi who learned from CWS, and was a sihing to Yip, who taught Pan Nam or Ng Chung So, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Pacman

yes exactly the point. YKS and his brother did not learn the simplified version we know today from their two WC teachers. YKS simplified



exactly my point again. this is what I am talking about YKS signature.




bingo again. like i have been saying all along, the WC that YKS learned was more complex. he was the one who simplified.

The book I mentioned before is evidence of the previously complex WCK of the Red Boat. The Weng Chun that Andreas Hoffman teaches, is said to come from Fung Siu Ching as well and is more complex with forms and movements. So we can easily establish that WCK is not the simple system we see today, even as recently as the early 1900s

so who simplified it?

of course you could make an argument that no it was actually YM who did the simplification, but we have already established that YKS was

-the senior student compared to YM
-YKS was the actual one who was part of the richest family in Fatsan.
-YKS was the one who gave instruction to YM for a while when the Yip family was burned down due to the Yip family's drug smuggling connections, again suggesting superiority in WC skill and knowledge
-YKS never worked a day in his life due to his wealth, had the best and most expensive teachers money could buy, housed his teacher Fung Siu Ching in the traditional way, learning from him every day until Fung Siu Ching died.

Compare this to the facts about YM:

-we also know that YM only learned from Chan Wah Shun for a few months before Chan Wah Shun he died, and then had to learn from his Sihing. His involvement with Leung Bik and the "secret" wing chun is under question.

People can make their own conclusion as to what happened. we have established the facts, here is my analysis.

Did YM create the simpler version of WC in between having his house burnt down and fleeing to HK, only to have YKS, the senior student, take the new version.

Or did YKS, the senior student, who had all the time and money in the world, who did nothing but practice WC and fight in duels (records kept and verified by government run Chinese Historical Kung Fu Assocation), streamline the WC he learned and have it spread out to others.

thank you for your input and verification of the facts i presented. as we all know, Robert has spent a lot of time learning WC history

i have presented my analysis. everyone can make their own. i have met in Guangdong people without a dog in this race--a student of YM when he was in Fatsan, and the widow of a YKS student. Both have said everyone knows that YKS is the most famous and well known WCK practitioner of those days. YKS skill and conditioning were beyond reproach. he could jab his fingers into a japanese soldier's helmet and leave 5 finger dents.

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Sir,

I don't have much time for this online, but I would be happy to discuss if you want to call me.

I will say perhaps you are mistaking Wing Chun for Weng Chun and vice versa. YKS did not simplify anything. He refined his art for himself. Weng Chun and Wing Chun are 2 lines from the same source - one maintained their combination Shaolin structure, the other maintained their Wing Chun structure. YKS wisely knew he could not adapt the Shaolin structure Weng Chun presented to Wing Chun, so he used San Sao of Fung Siu Ching, not their sets.

And although the 6.5 point poole sets may vary, the apllication and principles do not. One art (Weng Chun) teaches you all the variation in the classical sense, the other (WCK) allows you to extrapolate the changes. You know in Chinese we learn things set, then we do Bien Faat (Variations/Changes/Modifications) - it is not a rigid standard either, it is generally adapted for the individual' s temperment, intelligence, aptitude, personality, which is why nonsense about "original pure system" is highly questionable for TCMA in general.

As for the oral story of YKS being able to dent a Japanese soldier helmet, I heard this early in my training and will say, the roundness of a soldier's helmet blunts force, as does the body movement and neck flexibility, and it does not mean an out of shape opium addict will be able to send his fingers like rifle bullets into anyone's skull. You might be able to dent it, but it is highly unlikely anyone will simply stand there and let you do that, especially if armed with a katana, bayonet or rifle during the 2nd Sino-Japapnese War. So while I admire YKS's finger strength, let's get real. Stories like this are to be taken with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by Shadow_warrior8

Thank you Senior Robert, since you spent years in both arts, your word means alot here

I have found the similar facts as you. So while the forms of YKS and Ip Man are similar in appearance and its public, for all to see on video, I happen to notice a vast difference in application and energy when they chi sao

In the Yuen Family forms, I see alot of circular fluid movements with various speeds in the forms e.g last part of Sil Lim Tao(perhaps to show white crane lineage). And a great deal of chin na like in Rene's book and Yuen Jo Tong's movements. The Bil Jee shown by Sum Nung student, Master Zhou in guangzhou, also shows different movements and speeds, energy compared to the energy in GM Ip Ching bil jee.

Here for comparison are the 2 families descendants doing bil jee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gq0i-13FJcy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctJ2KMc6VzI

From what I practice and study of the Ip Man family forms, they are not the same in energy.

If Sifu Wong Nim Yi is anyone to reference, the Yi Jee Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao is not the same as Ip Man Bart Cham Dao, and neither is the lok dim bun gwun taught by GM Ip Ching.

And yes, I can see Yuen Kay San signature in Sifu Mak Yiu Ming Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kil, Bil Jee. Although he does not claim anything back to master yuen, its clear that had a similar source.

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Shadow,

Wong Nim Yi is an indirect descendant of Sum Nung's teachings, as his sets have the similarity and sigbnature of YKS. You can see it throughout the "Mae Gai" Wong teachings. His Yee Ji Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao is a variation of Sum Nung's Yee Ji Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao derived from Cheung Bo's teachings.

Ip Ching and Ip Chun's pole sets are shortened and abbreviated and not taught like WSL's, Moy Yat's, or Tsui Sheung Tien's sets which are the original versions of what Yip Man taught. Lok Yiu also had the same set. Perhaps as Yip Man aged or trained less, he was unable to teach his sons in the mid - late 1960's the physical requirements of the pole and its changes. The essence is there. Leung Ting also does have the original set Yip Man taught. There is some slight variation in each of the sets I mentioned. Since I practice the pole a lot and asked various uncles/elders about it, I did learn many variations.

As for the knives, you should know a secret - there is no one "true" BJD set - they are all made by Yip Man with variation over the years from what he taught in Futshan and what he taught from the '50's, 60's and 70's. What he taught Ho Kam Ming (as well as Duncan Leung and Hawkins Cheung) was probably his last and best choreography. What he taught Moy Yat, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, Koo Sang and Leung Ting are all similar - the latter two have no flipping, whereas the former 3 have flipping. Yip Man basically had core drills, derived from the empty hand WCK and applied these to the knives - which eventually became "forms", although the BJD sets are generally illogical and basically core movements with footwork. Many learned it in dim sum restaurants in HK with chopsticks. Some "amended" it and changed the set for their own reasons, for example, WSL had at least 3 revisions to it, before the last version.

FWIW:

Cheung Bo's son, Ah Chut, learned from Sum Nung. What he taught Mak was pretty much Sum Nung's system.

Yuen Kay-San learned double knives from Fok Bo-Chuen, however he kept Fok's set in the family and taught his students versions of Cheung Bo's set with a few movements from Fok Bo-Chuen, and Yuen Kay-San's mechanics.

Yuen Jai-Wan apparently taught more WCK to native Cantonese than native Vietnamese after he moved to Vietnam. That wasn't an uncommon thing at the time. It was also a period and place where history and lineage didn't matter as much as survival so people combined what they learned from Yuen with other kung-fu styles and a lot of hybrid variations were passed along.

Chan Wah-Shun's grandsons put a lot of their village kung-fu into their Wing Chun Kuen.

The story of Yip Man's house burning down is fairly well known in China and I've heard it from many people and seen it in print. Yuen Kay-San and his two sons helped fight the fire, and Yip Man stayed with him following the blaze.

Again, you can check New Martial Hero for the story about Kwok Fu's training at the time and Sum Nung's offer to accompany Mok Poi-On to visit Kwok to make sure it was properly documented. Suffice it to say Yip Man was a reluctant teacher at the time and it's widely known in China that Kwok and Lun Gai continued their training after Yip Man left for Hong Kong and Sum Nung moved to Guangzhou.

Reputation was everything back then and they each knew the others skills fairly well. When others weren't around, I'm sure each had their own "fish who got away" stories, but when face to face with each other fairly accurate accounts had to be relayed.

Thank you rene and robert

I can always trust your opinion to be factual and respectful for all families.

Alot of what you mentioned is as what I have seen and heard as well about chan wah shun, and the ip man family elders.

Will be heading to china and hongkong. Will give sigung a call in hongkong. Will want to know about the ip family house being burnt down and also what happened. E.g was it drugs like what is suggested by pacman.

regards.

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Originally Posted by chusauli

Shadow,

Wong Nim Yi is an indirect descendant of Sum Nung's teachings, as his sets have the similarity and sigbnature of YKS. You can see it throughout the "Mae Gai" Wong teachings. His Yee Ji Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao is a variation of Sum Nung's Yee Ji Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao derived from Cheung Bo's teachings.

Ip Ching and Ip Chun's pole sets are shortened and abbreviated and not taught like WSL's, Moy Yat's, or Tsui Sheung Tien's sets which are the original versions of what Yip Man taught. Lok Yiu also had the same set. Perhaps as Yip Man aged or trained less, he was unable to teach his sons in the mid - late 1960's the physical requirements of the pole and its changes. The essence is there. Leung Ting also does have the original set Yip Man taught. There is some slight variation in each of the sets I mentioned. Since I practice the pole a lot and asked various uncles/elders about it, I did learn many variations.

As for the knives, you should know a secret - there is no one "true" BJD set - they are all made by Yip Man with variation over the years from what he taught in Futshan and what he taught from the '50's, 60's and 70's. What he taught Ho Kam Ming (as well as Duncan Leung and Hawkins Cheung) was probably his last and best choreography. What he taught Moy Yat, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, Koo Sang and Leung Ting are all similar - the latter two have no flipping, whereas the former 3 have flipping. Yip Man basically had core drills, derived from the empty hand WCK and applied these to the knives - which eventually became "forms", although the BJD sets are generally illogical and basically core movements with footwork. Many learned it in dim sum restaurants in HK with chopsticks. Some "amended" it and changed the set for their own reasons, for example, WSL had at least 3 revisions to it, before the last version.

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Sifu Robert, that seems quite consistent about Sifu Wong Nim Yi. I am a great fan of his, and he has good skills

One main thing is that alot of Sigung Ip Ching stuff is still very much kept within his direct lineage. Having done both Sigung Ip Chun and Ip Ching forms, from sil lim tao, chum kil, bil jee are different in energy. Also the movements of bart cham dao are different starting from the second section onwards. And the footwork angles for bart cham dao as well.
The lok dim bun are also different for the brothers. I have seen the Master Tsui Shueng Ting pole and knife, its simple and straight forward, the set by GM Ip Ching are longer.

But having look at these sets for a few years now, I take what works and drill it for speed, power, accuracy, footwork, and other than that, who thinks its right or wrong hasnt mattered as much since. The only way is to go and ask ip man, and maybe his answer might surprise us all.

Thanks for your information.

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Originally Posted by Shadow_warrior8

Man, so now you are saying Chan Wah Shun grand son also learn from Yuen Kay San? What are you saying???

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no i am saying that his book is evidence that what chan wah shun originally taught, and what YM learned, is not the simplified version we know today

regarding YKS and his finger conditioning--no one is saying he could put his fingers through a skull and yes much more is needed to apply that ability in a fight. these are strawmen responses. i was telling that story as an example to show the type of dedication and skill YKS had as a WC practitioner

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I cannot see today, any point that they were all taught by the same person Master Yuen as said by Pacman.

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again you are mischaracterizing what i am saying. i said that YKS taught YM some basic chi sau. that is it. i never said YKS taught anyone else formally besides sum nung.

others may have "borrowed" his simplification or just stolen a few moves here and there. seeing how some people do chi sau or even SLT and it really seems like a person whose understanding is only skin deep.

Getting quotes from Kwok Fool is no different than getting it from Yip chun, who already apologized for many times lying. Some people are good for twisting things around, he can challenge the reader's intellengence for saying it was just a pouring tea--respect to a senior, where the big letters in the newspaper headline said it was an apology.

History keeps repeating itself. when sum nung was alive he spent a lot of his time defending his teacher Yuen's honor by going around Fatsan and even HK, confronting lies by many top "masters", their students always surprised to see their teacher's quick apology and blaming of responsibility for the lies to overzealous students. Even Sum Nung got tired of going around and hearing apology after apology, only to hear the same lie being repeated years later.

Yeh right dude. So now SN stood infront of everyone and confonted YM. Seriously. What major lies were being spead, what were all the other schools.
Gwok fu is majorly different to yip chun. Gwok fu trainned hard and was known as one of the best fighters in fut san hence the soliders needing to tie him up and break his legs with rifle butts. I have never heard a bad word from gwok fu about anyone. Every story he told left both parties with a good standing. What people turn it into is another story.
Who cares what chan wah shun's grandson does. Ive seen him, hes ****. He like other relatives of famous people just goes off his name and what he does has so much crap in it its hard to tell what is VT.

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Originally Posted by Pacman

no i am saying that his book is evidence that what chan wah shun originally taught, and what YM learned, is not the simplified version we know today

regarding YKS and his finger conditioning--no one is saying he could put his fingers through a skull and yes much more is needed to apply that ability in a fight. these are strawmen responses. i was telling that story as an example to show the type of dedication and skill YKS had as a WC practitioner

again you are mischaracterizing what i am saying. i said that YKS taught YM some basic chi sau. that is it. i never said YKS taught anyone else formally besides sum nung.

others may have "borrowed" his simplification or just stolen a few moves here and there. seeing how some people do chi sau or even SLT and it really seems like a person whose understanding is only skin deep.

Getting quotes from Kwok Fool is no different than getting it from Yip chun, who already apologized for many times lying. Some people are good for twisting things around, he can challenge the reader's intellengence for saying it was just a pouring tea--respect to a senior, where the big letters in the newspaper headline said it was an apology.

History keeps repeating itself. when sum nung was alive he spent a lot of his time defending his teacher Yuen's honor by going around Fatsan and even HK, confronting lies by many top "masters", their students always surprised to see their teacher's quick apology and blaming of responsibility for the lies to overzealous students. Even Sum Nung got tired of going around and hearing apology after apology, only to hear the same lie being repeated years later.

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Did you misspell Kwok Fu on purpose or were you disrespectful like you are about Ip Man? If you were you are a FOOL. You think you are funny? I dont see you spelling of those you defend name wrong. Respect the teacher and the way, you havent got it. Period.

You can say anything you want. You can say Ip Man was from Mars or that Master Yuen was anything. You havent proven anything from anyway. i have produced both sides historically here from China. You- Nil.

Show me, you or those of your gang, show me where Ip Chun apologised for lying about Leung Bik. Show me the chinese article. Show me your intelligence.
The title you posted says its an apology? 《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打
Do you know how to read mandarin? What does the article say? I posted it in full so all can see. This is not to say Checkley Sim did not offer tea to Yiu and Yuen for the movie, misrepresenting their ancestors
Get it???

Apologise for movie representation of Yuen Kay San and Yiu Choi is not = Apologise for lying about Leung Bik and Ip Man

Here is the chinese report again in SOUND- why is your version muted? Speaks volumes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5njdTJvxnA

Can you read you own text? For god sake use google translate if you cant. Your truth is only a few clicks away to relieve you from your confusion over what is what. However stubborness even though the truth is staring at you, that is a different question.

Here again, my reply to your text.
The movie was not Ip Man 2, it was Ip Man the Legend is born,
This title means 《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打
Ip Man the legend is born is accused of slander, apology meeting didnt get to start and they nearly came to blows.
PAGE 1 of this thread.
I posted this article right at the beginning in words for all to see and the reference. Its all very transparent. The words do not amount to GM Ip Chun saying Leung Bik doesnt exist and that he was not telling the truth. Nowhere does it say GM Ip Chun say, he confess that Leung Bik didnt teach Ip Man.
Your title says apology many times? This is your title you posted. 《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打
Offering tea multiple times was "A subtitle" in the main article and that was because Yuen Jo Tong was angry about the western students on site and that he felt the apology was not sincere enough at 1 seating

You cant lie about written text. You can lie about the stories which you say Ip Man this and that because you have nothing to show.
You cant lie about leung bik when his verified historical documents are in Ip Man Tong. You cant lie about leung bik because the Chinese Professors in history have already researched it and put in officially on record in their chinese goverment website.
And then Master Fung and Tam come forward to say it as well. I notice only in the west, is Leung Bik existence challenged. Speaks volumes.

In page 1, the person who poured tea was Checkley Sim, Ip Chun student
冼国林低头斟茶认错
Who apologised? Ip Chun who was acting or Checkley Sim the financier of the movie, who name is in the report. And was it over lying about Leung Bik??? Leung Bik was not properly represented in terms of what he taught Ip Man. He didnt teach wrestling and high kicks like said in the movie. We understand what the so called "distortion" was. If thats the west twisting the way chinese words are worded. Well I doubt people get the chinese language and ways at all. I am sure some people read chinese here, but not many.
If this rubbish was posted in a china forum, you would get blasted big time because it shows you really cant read mandarin or understand the chinese culture. They all read mandarin and there is no need to debate what chinese words mean.

For every lie you present, I will make sure the proper chinese representation for Chinese Wing Chun Kung Fu be presented- direct from China. You can count on that.
讲你不听,听你不明,明你不做,做你又做错,错你又不认,认你又不改,改你又不服,不服你又不 讲；那你要我 怎么办？
40 years on from Ip Man's death, the chinese ways and culture are lost and muddled. Its really sad for TCMA. There is no more respect of teacher and way.

Your main goal is to lie about Ip Man to run down his name and his skills. And even Kwok Fu, Ip Chun etc.... As benefactors of this man and his efforts(as most of the western world is), you can be sure I am not going to let that happen.