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Out of curiosity, when you all do push hands, what relative stances do you use:
1) Opposite(so if your right foot is forward, the other person's is)?
2) Mirrored?
3) Square?(Both essentially in horse)?
4) Deep(other stances, but closer)?
5) Do you allow pivoting when there is no step?
6) Do you allow gripping?
7) Do you allow controlling legs?
8)Do you allow controlling the head/neck?
In my school...
For the hands: Single hand, double hands in horizontal plane, then double hands full rotation, then WITH follow stepping and then of course big roll back, with either spliting or pressing adding into it. Free or some sort of san shou is last.
Full on San Shou is for strike, sweep, lock and throw.
The partner work stances matchup either way...Bow vs Bow doesn't matter, but most of the time i'd say we mirror eachother.
I never use squared up as I believe in principle it's fundamentally wrong to leave that much of your center open. Or more to the point, I would not leave myself perpendicular to him. Example, myself square and wide open in a horse VS my opponent facing into me with a bow stance.
Depth is normal or natural, however you need to in order to follow your opponent.
Fixed step is ok to start with, but it's not natural and far too limiting, so I don't stay there very long. Movement is essential.
Answer YES to questions: 6,7 & 8.
We do use squared up, not because it's an ideal, but to work that moment where you may end up squared, and how to change that.
i have only done push hands a few times, when i did though we werent stationary we were using footwork the whole time. it was two hands and constantly moving around. idk if that is normal or not, but i am curious to know if it is. i only studied chen taiji for like maybe 6 or 7 months and in that time i got in just a bit of push hand.
was that because i was new to push hand and they were giving me freedom to move since it was more natural to me than standing still?
i dont really know much at all about push hand other than my limited experience
IME, it depends on the school. Some spend a lot more time on stationary, some not. One of the Chen style schools I went to did as you describe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas
Others hopefully have their answers.
1) Opposite(so if your right foot is forward, the other person's is)?
2) Mirrored?
We should train both "uniform stance" and "mirror stance".
3) Square?(Both essentially in horse)?
5) Do you allow pivoting when there is no step?
This will build bad habit.
6) Do you allow gripping?
I truly don't know how to continue your push hands if you allow grabbing? It will turn into 100% wrestling.
7) Do you allow controlling legs?
This will even make the moving step PH impossible.
8)Do you allow controlling the head/neck?
I don't believe the "head lock" even exist in the Taiji system. Have never heard any Taiji guy even train it.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
It allows working the opening for moves that involve a pivot- granted, if the step through is not allowed, they will "lose" the push hands exchange, but if they keep in mind the limits of the drill, I don't see how using a pivot that the style uses will create a bad habit.Quote:
5) Do you allow pivoting when there is no step?
This will build bad habit.
Good, let it. Gripping and no gripping are part of the fighting style of taiji, working one and not the other seems short-sighted. I'll work some rounds one way, some the other. Sometimes, I'll avoid gripping when dealing with someone who is gripping.Quote:
6) Do you allow gripping?
I truly don't know how to continue your push hands if you allow grabbing? It will turn into 100% wrestling.
If the leg controls are part of the system, which many are, it's an opportunity to work them, and an opportunity to learn how to defend them.Quote:
7) Do you allow controlling legs?
This will even make the moving step PH impossible.
In taixuquan, which is largely taiji, the headlock does exist. However, headlocks are not the only way of affecting the head and neck.Quote:
8)Do you allow controlling the head/neck?
I don't believe the "head lock" even exist in the Taiji system. Have never heard any Taiji guy even train it.
By allowing some targets to be out of bounds, taiji guys miss the chance to develop defenses to more varied circumstances.
Granted, I see push hands as a varied exercise. Sometimes, it's about not gripping, but sometimes its about entraining listening skills for the techniques involved.
I mean the stational PH will build bad habit. If you allow the feet to move then there won't be any pivot issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Elbows
Which move of the form from which style of Taiji has a "head lock"?Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Elbows
I tend to view it as, no full stationary, but stationary with pivots allowed being a good starting point.Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
No pivots=holding tension in the knees, which is bad taiji.
Keep in mind, the style I do, taixuquan, while considered in the taiji family, is still a bit different. It has the common headlock found in many kungfu styles I don't know the traditional name, I recall you and Bawang talking about it some months back.Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
Could you describe it in a bit more detail? I'm very interesting in "head lock" training in different style.Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Elbows
Yes to all of the above but. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Elbows
Shifu doesn't allow me to freely push hands with just anybody unsupervised. He wants to be there coaching you. That means that 90% of the push hands I have done is with Shifu directly and that means that while gripping is allowed, you get punished severely for it. If I was just pushing with a buddy of mine, maybe gripping would make things turn into a wrestling match but Shifu's qin na is so f'ing good that he doesn't have to explain a theoretical reason why not to grab. He just drops you to ground so fast you don't have time to tap. He will also mix in elbow stikes, knees or punching just to keep you on your toes if you try to "grip". He's taught me explicitly the old Bruce Lee solution to an arm grab: punch him in the face.
By training mainly just with him 1 on 1 he can more easily promote his own ideal of Taiji skill by allowing you to "live" when you are doing it "right" and punishing you for "bad" movement. When I push with someone closer to my level I can often succeed even though I am doing it "wrong".
This is the main problem for most wrestlers. They are too used to the none striking environment. It will need a long time to remove such "bad habit" when striking is allowed in the wrestling match. When you apply grip fight, you have to handle your opponent's striking ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by omarthefish
This is also why it may be easy to be a good striker. It may also be easy to be a good grappler. The moment that you try to integrate striking and grappling together, you may find out that there is still something missing there. The missing part is your "bad habit" that you may develop in a 100% striking environment and 100% grappling environment. The problem is if you try to integrate your striking skill and grappling skill too soon, you may not have chance to have a full skill development. If you postpone your integration too late, it will take too much time to remove your bad habit.